No “Climate Refugees,” But Still a Role for the UN Refugee Agency

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CHAPTERS 

[00:02:46]: Regional frameworks in Africa and Latin America and their broader scope 

[00:04:21]: Climate change as a “vulnerability multiplier” in displacement contexts 

[00:08:33]: Slow-onset vs. sudden disasters: measurement and attribution challenges 

[00:12:13]: Regions most exposed to climate-related displacement risks 

[00:17:29]: Renewable energy and sustainability efforts in refugee operations 

[00:20:13]: Drivers of displacement: interactions between climate, conflict, and resources 

[00:22:28]: Common misconceptions about climate-related displacement 

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:04.02] 

Welcome back to Changing Climate, Changing Migration. This is a podcast from the Migration Policy Institute that examines the different ways in which climate change is affecting migration. My name is Julian Hattem, I am the host of this podcast and I'm also the editor of MPI's online magazine called the Migration Information Source. We're producing this podcast as part of our focus on climate change and migration, which also includes a collection of articles looking at regional case studies and top level trends. You can find those online at migrationpolicy.org/climate. One of the larger questions I have been curious about is what the UN refugee agency, UNHCR, feels is its role when it comes to the intersection of climate and human migration. I am particularly curious given that the push by some to formally designate so called climate migrants as refugees has not come to pass. And so to find out, my guest today is Andrew Harper. Andrew is the UNHCR special advisor on climate action, which is a position he has held since early 2020. And I'm really excited to talk with him today both about how the UN refugee agency sees the connection between climate and forced migration, also what it's doing about it.

[00:01:24.16] 

So Andrew, thank you so much for coming on to talk with me today.

[00:01:28.04] 

No, thank you. It's very much the topic of our time and probably future generations time. So it's really important and something which the UN refugee agency is particularly vested in, which has been typified by the fact that I've now got this job which is reporting directly to the High Commissioner on what should be UNHCR's role to enhance the protection needs of people who have been displaced. But probably going back to your first point about the never ending question about climate refugees, technically there's no such thing as climate refugees. And so if we go back to the 1951 Convention, which is quite a while ago, but this is the basis for our work, a refugee has got a very specific definition and that is defined as a person who has crossed an international border and being crossed, forced crossing the international border, owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. So that being said, this was made in 951 and as any legal instrument it evolves over time, but it hasn't evolved over time that much that there is such a concept of climate refugees.

[00:02:46.04] 

That being said, we also look very much at regional instruments and particularly in areas where we see significant change taking place, and Africa and South America being two of those areas which are going to be increasingly hit by climate change. So you've got the OAU convention from 1969, as well as the Cartagena Declaration, and both of those extend the refugee definition to include people fleeing events seriously disturbing public order. So while there's no technical acceptance of climate refugees, there's an increasing acceptance that people who are fleeing due to extreme climatic conditions or disasters are in need of increasing international protection. We're not looking, and it's probably very important to stress at the moment to create new mandates or create new instruments. What we're looking to do is to ensure that we mobilize, operationalise those instruments, those human rights instruments where they exist, and particularly provide support to regional entities to provide protection. And if you look at who was signed on the OAU Convention, so that's the Organization of African Unity, there's 46 states who have signed on to that. So let's provide the support to those states where they can. The other element which we need to take into account is that there's almost a...

[00:04:17.01] 

There's an over fixation on refugees. And I talked about the definition about people crossing an international border, specifically to stress that the vast majority of people who have been forced to flee due to climatic change or disasters generally are accommodated within their own country, so they're internally displaced, not necessarily refugees. So I think the focus should be on how do we provide protection, support to governments and communities for those internally displaced so they're not forced to cross a border. So being more proactive, anticipating where the challenges will be in the future, will hopefully mitigate the need for even discussions on what a climate refugee is. Sorry, I hope that wasn't too long winded.

[00:05:06.01] 

No, that was great. I really appreciate that. I mean, the question about quote, unquote, climate refugees is such a big one. I think it's really good to, as you did, address that and make sense of what that is.

[00:05:16.19] 

I'll also add another bit to that, is that while technically it's not there, it does. It's a very simple approach in order to stress that people fleeing the impact of climate change and disasters, they're in a situation not of their own making and they're in need of protection. So, like, while it's not covered under international jurisprudence, the that that need for international protection is increasingly becoming apparent.

[00:05:48.04] 

Yeah. And so, which I guess takes me to. My next question is, how do you. How does UNHCR, what is your philosophy or your approach to how climate and the impacts of climate change affect forced migration? Is the climate a driver of migration, an exacerbating factor, a threat multiplier. How do you think of those two interacting and to what extent, if at all, does that approach differ when it comes to so called slower onset events such as desertification and sea level rise versus more immediate fast moving crises like hurricanes?

[00:06:23.05] 

It's a very good question. How do we see it? We certainly like what a lot of commentators refer to climate change is that they say it's a risk multiplier or a threat multiplier. How I'd probably like to refer to it is as a vulnerability multiplier or amplifier. It's actually what we're seeing is that whether it's slow onset or sudden onset disasters taking place, it's really knocking the ability of populations to be resilient to the next stage. And so what we are seeing, and this goes across almost all continents, is that you have the impact of climate change exacerbating underlying vulnerabilities. And those vulnerabilities, whether it be because you're in a disadvantaged situation, has meant that has led to increased fragility, vulnerability, conflict and displacement. So we definitely see it like climate change in itself doesn't, doesn't cause necessary conflict, but it certainly is, exacerbates the elements. And you've mentioned it already, like whether it be drought or cascading disasters leading to the inability of people to adapt to the next one. We're seeing that already in Mozambique. We're seeing desertification, the inability of people to survive in Sahel and possibly in the future in South Asia.

[00:08:02.20] 

So all these are complicating factors, I suppose. What is particularly the difference between the sudden onset and the slow onset? Is the sudden onset you can often measure relatively quickly. Okay, you have a cyclone or a hurricane or a flood and you can count how many people have been moved. And IDMC do a good job in counting the internal displacement. What is more difficult to do is to attribute why people move in the, on the, during the onslaught of a slow onset. So at what point and for what reason do people make the decision to move when they've had six or seven years of drought or when, when the sea level is gradually increasing? When you have these sudden, well, not so sudden, when you have these storm surges coming through. So there is a difference. I think what UNHCR is particularly engaged in at the moment is that we are no longer a traditional humanitarian reactive agency where there is a conflict and we go and respond to addressing the protection assistance needs with our partners. What we are facing now is very clear evidence that climate change is going to exacerbate both sudden onset and slow onset reasons for people to have to move.

[00:09:32.09] 

And so let's, if we understand science, if we appreciate science, then can we identify those locations which are most vulnerable to climate change, both slow and sudden onset, and can we already support adaptation and resilience programs there? And that's again, not something which is done entirely by UNHCR. This is something which has to be addressed in support of local communities, partners and governments. So this is probably one of the biggest changes that we're looking to do, like where there's an enormous amount of discussions on how many people are likely to be impacted by climate change in the future and how many people will be forced to move. Well, how many people be forced to move is largely up to the international community. If we don't provide the resilience and support to those communities, they'll have no choice to move. And the other element is that it's only those people who have got the resources and capacity to move, who can move. The most vulnerable, and this is like the elderly, the disadvantaged, the young, and often women, they may be forced to stay where they are. And so it's often the young, particularly males, who go elsewhere and find support.

[00:10:54.16] 

Also what we'll see with climate change is that as places become less and less capable of holding existing populations or rapidly increasing populations in the future, particularly looking for Sahel, where populations may double within the next 20 or 30 years, then that's going to drive other megatrends, including urbanization. So what is going to be the capacity of these middle to large metropolises, in particular in places like Africa, who already, which are already struggling to provide basic infrastructure, including health and education and governance, how will they, how will they be doing? How will they cope with, with massive population increases in the future? And, and we're already seeing that with the extreme onset floods, storms, as they grow in intensity, will that, will the infrastructure, which has often been informally made unplanned, where there's insignificant waste management systems being put in place, drainage systems, how will they cope in the future? So there's lots of questions which are going on, which we're, which we're trying to grapple with, with our partners over.

[00:12:13.07] 

And are there particular regions or crises that have captured your attention more than others? You mentioned the Sahel and Mozambique, both of which have some conflict dimensions going on. What other particular regions that you've been focusing on?

[00:12:26.22] 

Well, certainly the Sahel, like you have this confluence of issues. You've got climate change, where the temperature's increasing by anywhere between one and a half to two times the global average. And that's sort of then linking in with issues over development, population growth, urbanization, security, ethnic conflict. So that, that's a, that's a very key area which we're spending a lot of time on, including how to anticipate future conflicts which may lead to forced displacement and how climate may be exacerbating that. So, so one is Sahel, and then you could also take that into West Africa. But also you've got the situation of East Africa where you've got a number of countries which have been generously hosting refugees are also experiencing challenges. So it's worth noting that 90% of refugees originate from countries which are either vulnerable or extremely vulnerable to climate change or disasters. So we've got, we've really got a stake in, in this situation because if we wish to mitigate future population displacements from these areas, we do have to support those countries which are already seen to be extremely vulnerable. On the other side too, if we don't address the capacity for populations in those fragile countries to support themselves, then it's unlikely that they'll be able to support eventual returns of already displaced people.

[00:14:00.19] 

So the Sahel, West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa is also having extreme bearing the brunt of climatic change as well. It's almost doubling expected temperatures compared to the global average. The arid corridor in Central America and South America and also South Asia as well, particularly in those locations such as Bangladesh, which will be impacted by sea level rise. And you've also got small island developing states where you don't necessarily have conflict there, but we will have the issues of potential. What does statelessness mean for a country which may not necessarily have its territorial integrity, like physical appearance as it was, but it's still a state? So there's lots of questions which we're coming to grips with at the moment, and we look for as much support and guidance as possible.

[00:15:04.19] 

And what about hosts or receiving communities also in places affected by climate change? I mean, I know that there's already generally in many receiving countries some amount of skepticism or anxiety about refugees in asylum, because I can only imagine those are more pronounced in the context of climate change, I guess. What attitudes have you seen on the ground among host or receiving communities that are affected by climate change? And what have you been doing to do about those? And also I know that sometimes refugee camps and settlements can aggravate local environmental conditions, especially when camps emerge more or less overnight, I guess. How do you balance those issues and what is unhealthy approach to and responsibility in those situations.

[00:15:48.17] 

Yeah, well firstly our attitude is one of complete gratitude to the countries who are hosting refugees because they are, they are taking a shock like the like are not only refugees coming from countries which are impacted by climate change. This climate change is generally, it's not focused on a country, it's regional. So it's often the host states who are also impacted as well. So you've got the, they're seeing a surge in their population, in the population on their territory and this population comes with no resources, well generally very little in the way of resources and assets. And so whether it be looking to build huts or provide cooking facilities for them or energy for them, they do without doubt have a significant negative impact on the environment. So we as a protection agency have to look at the bigger picture. Not just meeting the needs of the refugees but also addressing the needs of the host communities with development actors including the World bank and other key stakeholders. Because if you don't protect the environment in which displaced people are, you cannot expect that host community to protect the refugees. Like so it's critical that we focus more and more on environmental protection, clean energy and just last year we released a sustainable energy strategy for UNHCR and the focus of that was to ensure that by 2030 the vast majority of refugee settlements around the world are using renewable energy.

[00:17:29.06] 

Like we've got a number of standouts operations including in Kenya at the Dadaab; Jordan with Azraq Camp and Zaatari Camp. But, but they should not be the exception, they should be the rule where not only are we protecting the environment but we're empowering the displaced people in the host communities by providing them with clean energy. It's just like a no brainer. Likewise, we've, we're taking much more into account when we're design designing settlements and we're, we're trying to take away the word camps as much as possible when we're designing settlements sure that they include flood mitigation because even if you're building a camp in, in Jordan in the desert there will be floods every year. So you have to make, take that into account that there's green spaces that we're much more environmentally sensitive. In locations like Bangladesh where you've got Kutupalong camp with about 80,000 people, you have to, and it's built on a very hilly clay environment. You have to take into account potential landslides and again fighting there. So lots of work on energy, on sustainability, on creation of green livelihoods. But also looking how can UNHCR and our partners reduce our own CO2 footprint?

[00:18:50.14] 

Do we all need to be driving around in our own separate fleets? Can WFP and UNHCR and IOM and UNICEF have one fleet, for instance? Or can we have much more in the way of common offices? Do we need to have 4,000 generator, diesel generators polluting the, polluting the Earth. So we can also make our own contributions to a much cleaner and friendlier environment, but a lot of it going back to host communities. If there's any win that we can do, it's to demonstrate solidarity with those communities who are being impacted by climate change, but are also hosting refugees. How much better can you be than to try and empower and support these communities? And so this is something which we're trying to emphasize in our work. We're saying, look, we're already on the front lines of the climate emergency. Refugees are often refugees because of a combination, not just because of conflict. You have to look at the root causes of what. Why, why did conflict break out? Why was this violence ensuing in certain areas? And you can often break it down and sort of go back because of the changing environment, because of land use issues, because of competition over water.

[00:20:13.13] 

So we have to be a little bit more sophisticated in how we discuss things. And I go back to how you have framed this actual intervention, which was about forced migration. It's forced migration, it's migration, it's environmental movements. Like no one really knows in many situations, what has been the final trigger to force people to leave. And if you ask a Somali shepherd who's just crossed into Ethiopia, why they move. They said, look, like we sold our last goats and we've not been able to get. We've not been able to buy water because, because water starts becoming a much more valuable commodity. Why is Al-Shabaab been able to get much more leverage in different areas? Why hasn't the government been able to control or demonstrate rule of war in different areas? Because often they don't have the capacity to do it because of a deteriorating environment, deteriorating economy. So it's, it's very like, it's really interesting at the moment looking at climate change and forced movement, because there's so many variables coming into play and there's so many different stakeholders. It's never now just conflict. There's always a backstory to it. And that's where we, we just need to continually learn about not only what's happening at the moment, but what we should be expecting in the future.

[00:21:38.24] 

Because it's not going to get simpler. It's going to become increasingly more complicated. Resources are not going to be as plentiful as we'd like, but we have to move away from a reactive emergency mindset to sort of say, okay, this is what we've got, this is what we can expect in the future, and this is how we've got to work with the local communities to build up their resilience so we can reduce the vulnerability in the first place.

[00:22:01.18] 

I want to close by taking a step back. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a lot of public interest in climate and displacement. What are the major disconnects that you see between the way that the general public talks about these issues and what you experience on the ground? I guess, in other words, what are the aspects of this climate migration displacement nexus that don't get enough attention or aren't explored as much or as robustly as they should be?

[00:22:27.22] 

Well, I think probably the biggest issue that, and this goes across the whole range of refugees and displacement, is that people do not necessarily want to move. Majority of people are quite happy living in their communities in safety and with dignity. They, they've not made this choice to move. And also the majority of people who are being forced to move because of climatic conditions are probably the least responsible for this changing climate. I think it's Africa. Africa's got 3% of global emissions of the CO2 emissions. But it will be, it will bear the brunt of the consequences of climate because if you don't have the assets, if you don't have the resources, you are less able to adapt and have the resilience to withstand it. So the populations who are most affected have the least cause to be affected, so to speak. The other element too is that, and you mentioned at the very start the whole word of climate refugees, like there's a. It's not clearly recognized that people are not fleeing their countries. They are staying as close to their original communities as possible. And it's up to the international community to provide support to those countries so people are not forced to move even further on.

[00:23:51.07] 

And the most vulnerable of the vulnerable are those people who are fleeing both a combination of conflict and climate. And so this is where we're coming into play, where we will continue to offer our good offices where required to support protection where displacement has taken place. But it's much bigger than one agency, it's much bigger than one country. We have to have a more focused, collaborative approach to addressing climate. And one key element which we have to take into account is that climate cannot be, as I mentioned, cannot be addressed by one country or one agency. It requires everyone who's involved in development or peace building and security and humanitarian everyone who's interested in gender issues, everyone who's interested in everything. Because there's not one element of human society which is not going to be impacted by this, and it is the most vulnerable of the vulnerable. So if we do not address the issues now, if we don't get our, let's say, action plans in order, then we will be too far to catch up, too far behind to catch up.

[00:25:10.06] 

We should probably wrap things up there, but I really enjoyed this conversation. Andrew, thank you so much for spending the time with me today.

[00:25:15.19] 

Thank you very much for being interested.

[00:25:19.24] 

Andrew Harper is special advisor on climate action at the UNHCR. If you enjoyed this conversation with Andrew today, you should subscribe to Changing Climate, Changing Migration, which you can do through the podcast service of your choice. You can also find our full archive of episodes online at migrationpolicy.org/podcasts. And while you're on the site, check out our collection of articles analyzing how climate change affects migration. Those are at migrationpolicy.org/climate. Drop us a line by emailing [email protected]. Follow MPI on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram, and subscribe to the Migration Information Source newsletter, which delivers data and analysis on international migration to your inbox twice a month. The podcast today was produced by Kenia Guerrero with assistance from Julia Yanoff, Lisa Dixon and Michelle Mittelstadt. The theme music you are hearing is called Touch by Patrick Patrikios. I'm Julian Hattem. Thank you again and we'll see you next time.