First Displacement, then Disasters: How Refugees Contend with Climate Change

This transcript was generated using AI and may contain inaccuracies. If you notice an error, feel free to email [email protected].

CHAPTERS

02:45 Climate impacts on refugee settlements in Uganda

09:32 Legal and socioeconomic barriers to climate adaptation

16:52 Exclusion of refugees from climate policy processes

19:21 Refugee-led community resilience strategies

23:11 Climate challenges upon return: The case of South Sudan

27:24 Closing thoughts: co-creation and refugee inclusion

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:03.680] 

One of the front lines of climate change may be in a refugee camp. People displaced by war and persecution often face some of the most pernicious impacts of climate change. According to the UN Refugee Agency, about three quarters of forcibly displaced people live in countries that are especially exposed to climate related hazards. And fully half of displaced people who return home in 2025 did so to a place that was considered vulnerable to climate change. And yet, the voices of refugees themselves are rarely included in discussions. They tend to be marginalized by host country governments who often consider them only temporary residents. So where do refugees turn when disaster strike? This is Changing Climate, Changing Migration. This is a podcast about the intersection of climate change and migration from the Migration Policy Institute. I am Julian Hattem and I cannot believe that I'm saying this, but this is our 50th episode of this podcast. When we at MPI started this podcast several years ago, we never expected it to take on the momentum that it has. And we are all incredibly thrilled and grateful for the podcast positive support that we've received over the last few years.

[00:01:21.330] 

Thank you all so much to all of you for listening and to the dozens of guests who have appeared over that time. My guest today is Ayoo Irene Hellen. She is a partnership officer with the nonprofit Last Mile Climate, an emeritus fellow with the organization Refugees International, and also a refugee herself from South Sudan, raised in the Kiryandongo refugee settlement in Uganda. I am very excited to talk to her both about the global situation and hear from her own experiences on the ground. Ayoo, thank you so much for your time and for coming on the podcast today.

[00:01:56.400] 

Thank you for that fantastic introduction. I really appreciate, I appreciate you.

[00:02:03.440] 

So I will preface this conversation by noting that the refugees that we're talking about today are people who have been displaced because of climate or persecution and not by the impacts of climate change. As I say on most episodes of this podcast, people moving in response to drought, storms and other environmental events are not considered refugees, legally speaking. But even though they are not moving in response to climate change itself necessarily, refugees and other forcibly displaced people can still be affected by those impacts, right? I mean, from your perspective, Ayoo, how does this climate. How does climate change affect the lives of people who are already refugees or otherwise forcibly displaced?

[00:02:45.320] 

Thank you. First, I want us to understand that climate change only does not affect you when you're in your country of origin. For the past few years, we've seen refugee settlements in Uganda flooding, you know, drying up, and settlements like Adjumani is very unique. At least every year it floods and you know, the most unique thing is that in Uganda, all the settlements, all the refugee settlements are located in remote areas. And these are areas that are prone to disaster. So I've seen my fellow refugees being displaced from the settlements. I've seen households climbing up on the trees because of floods. I have seen my fellow refugees moving from another settlement to another settlement for refuge because their settlement is flooded. In Adjumani during rainy season like this, refugees climb up on the mountain because of floods, and then they come down when, when floods are reduced. So imagine a settlement like that. Children don't go to school, you know, and 80% of the 2 million refugees in Uganda are women and children. And they are more vulnerable when disaster unfolds. You cannot carry 10 children and climb a mountain with them. You have old, you know, grandmothers, grandfathers.

[00:04:52.460] 

They can't climb the mountain. So refugees are more affected with climate change than any other category of people, I would say. And I've seen this in Uganda happening every year.

[00:05:11.810] 

You mentioned the difficulties of children going to school. I also assume it's difficult for people to go to get medical care, medical attention if they're in flooding and have to be displaced or to work, to earn livelihood, to farm or whatever-- Exactly, because

[00:05:27.480] 

nobody one in the settlements, the health centers are always very far and it is shared with the host community. And in a situation like that, we should have medical teams going there. But if you see the kind of setting in settlements in Uganda, it's very difficult even for health workers to go there. And then after floods, always there are outbreak of diseases like cholera, you know, because water kills a lot of things, animals, you know, and then after fruits start coming out, mango and a lot of cholera, people die. So it's disaster in refugee space. It's very complicated because you don't have where to run, you have to rotate around. So. Yeah, and I'm happy you're bringing up these questions because it's very important.

[00:06:35.220] 

Yeah. So you mentioned that refugee settlements are located often in very remote, especially vulnerable areas. This is true, as you say, in Uganda, but it's not just in Uganda. According to UNHCR, the UN refugee agency, something like 15 refugee camps across the African continent could face up to 200 days of extreme heat stress per year. By 2050, other parts of the world, refugee settlements faced flooding, like you said, or hurricanes in some places. Other hazards. Why are refugee settlements in these difficult locations? Do governments tend to put the camps in places that are very climate vulnerable? Or what is. Why are refugee settlements so vulnerable to some of these challenges?

[00:07:23.020] 

I would not have a very good answer to that, but I would like to try, I think, because refugees come in big numbers and government and UNHCR always want to try and find an empty land that can accommodate. And this empty land mostly found in remote areas. I've been to Gambela in Ethiopia. The settlement is also in a very remote area. And again, most of these settlements are close to the border of the origin. If you see in Uganda, there are borders that are across Congo, Rwanda, and then the borders this side of Adjumani is just, you know, even sometimes my fellow South Sudanese refugees cross the border to South Sudan to go and, you know, till land, grow food and then comes back. So they're located within the border, refugees. Like in Uganda, there are 2 million refugees, as I speak. And, and these are people you can't bring in the city. You need an empty space. And those empty places are found in remote areas. That's what I think. I don't know if it's the right answer, but government and UNHCR might be in better position maybe to give us answer to this question.

[00:08:59.170] 

No, it, I mean, it makes sense that if you, if you have in some cases, 1 million, 2 million people emerge very quickly, you have to find a place for them, you know, often close to the, close to the border. Yeah. Difficult situation, but I guess are there other. Are there legal barriers or other restrictions that refugees sometimes face that prevent them from better adapting to the impacts of climate change either in the settlement or also, you know, many refugees live in towns, in cities or have been resettled elsewhere. Are there other barriers? Or is it just a matter of location?

[00:09:32.790] 

Yes, There are also other barriers. One is refugees don't have good income level. And most of the refugees, I would say 90%, are not employed. So even if they're in the city, they can't rent houses in a good, you know, place. Yeah, they'll have to go in areas that are prone to disaster. But also, this in Uganda is not, but I, in Ethiopia, I saw it. Refugees have restrictions of movement. They are not allowed to move from the settlements. They are just kept like animals in the settlements. So there are a lot of things that comes with this one. You're not exposed. You can't learn. And there's a lot of training that happens outside the settlements or even in the cities. You know, for example, now there's a lot of Sudanese refugees in Kampala, but they can't go to school because they don't, one, they don't understand English. They study in Arabic. So language. We should also consider language as another barrier, but also policy of the country. It also contributes to vulnerability. But also when we talk about policies. I participate in COP a lot and

[00:11:24.070] 

I know the UN Climate Change Conference.

[00:11:27.150] 

The conference, yes, I know countries, countries that host refugees pledge to include refugees in their NDCs, in their NAPs, you know, because even the bigger global spaces, people understand that refugees need to be important in order to, you know, in order to be resilient when climate change unfolds. And, and so if, if refugees are not included in the NDC and naps,

[00:12:05.240] 

that mean which are the adaptation plans and development plans? Yeah, the national adaptation.

[00:12:11.000] 

Yes, national development plans, you know, and then the, the, the, the national adaptation plants. If these documents don't include refugees in any country that hosts refugees, even countries that don't host refugees, we don't know in the future, you know, what is happening in the world. That means someone can be a refugee in five minutes, you know, now all of us, we are candidates to be refugees. Anything. The world is moving, you know, crazily. Things are happening anyhow. And so I think we need to prepare such documents, prepares the government on how they can support refugees when disasters, you know, unfolds, you know, and those are some of the factors that increase to vulnerability, but also lack of exposure, you know, refugees are excluded from very important discussions. There are a lot of projects that happen that are designed without refugees. There are spaces that refugees, even in COP. I really want to appreciate Refugee International for sponsoring me to go to COP, because in COP there's nothing like refugee discussions.

[00:13:55.250] 

So what is the effect of that? I mean, if refugees are not at the table either in national or international plans, what, what is missed? What is the ramifications? What is the effect of that

[00:14:07.980] 

exclusion, I guess? So the effects of exclusion is that one, the project will not address the root cause of the problems refugees are facing and the solutions will not. What do I want to bring out here? The solutions or the project itself will not even be accepted by the refugees. We've seen projects that, you know, that has a lot of millions of dollars dying in the refugee settlements. Nobody. You know, when you start tracking the, the impact, you don't see the impact because refugees were not involved during the design. There was no co-creation. You cannot design something for me and you bring, assuming that it will solve my problem. Refugees has very different problems. You might be designing, you know, for example, you might be designing a project to distribute shop for, for me, for washing my clothes. Yet for me, what I need it is food. I am hungry. How do you bring soap when I need food? You know, these are facts. These are truths that we see. So when you bring us to the table, we tell you, currently in Kiryandongo, we don't have enough land. So we think refugees should have enough land so that they grow their own food.

[00:15:53.030] 

Since there's aid cuts, UNHCR are no longer, and WFP no longer distribute food. You see? So we guide you. Then you bring a project that is tailored to the common problems in the community. And everybody also accept, because when we are part of. Remember, we know our problems, but we don't have the solutions. The solutions, but we don't have the resources. So these are the things. You have the resources. We know our problems, we know the solutions. So what we need is to guide you how you can better plan for your resources.

[00:16:33.600] 

Is there an example of that? Is there an example of a time when refugees were meaningfully involved, especially in shaping climate or displacement responses, and that their involvement changed the outcome? It had a meaningful impact on making better policy, improving people's lived realities?

[00:16:52.330] 

I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that. Even when floods happens, I don't see government vehicles coming. I don't see UNHCR, you know, people comes after the disaster and they ask you, okay, what was the impact? What was. What did you do? You know, how did you manage to survive? You see, that's. That's what I see in the community. I've not seen government or NGO or UN coming and say, let's sit down. I think we expect rain, heavy rain in June. So let's design and see. How should you protect your family during this time? I have not seen that. And that's why some refugees still live in temporary shelters, because they are not aware that season like this, rain can be heavy. Season like this, you need this. UNHCR gives refugees tarpaulins, and these tarpaulins cannot take you one full year, and it cannot protect you during disaster. It's very hot during dry season, and during rainy season is very cold. It can easily be washed away by the rain. So I've not yet witnessed anything like this, like a meaningful engagement with refugees. And that was the reason why I've applied with Refugees International to ensure that refugees are really involved in climate discussions.

[00:18:32.670] 

And the first thing, they started taking me to the COP. So coming back, I started engaging with Ministry of Water and Environment. So now they are getting to understand that. Yes, I think we need refugees to be part of this. We need refugees to be part of this.

[00:18:54.110] 

So, I mean, to follow on your question about what aid workers tend to say when they show up after the floods, how do refugee communities tend to cope? How do they persist after disaster strikes? Or another way of saying this is, are there approaches that you have seen in your community or elsewhere that have enabled refugees themselves to persist and thrive in the face of escalating climate risk?

[00:19:21.160] 

Yes, in the community we have organizations called refugee led organizations. These are organizations formed by the refugees themselves. They helped prepare the community when rain, like when floods happens. They bring youth together to help carry young children, you know, mothers from where flood is to another area which is safer. They do voluntary work. But also I've seen the women's groups in the community also, you know, drying food, preparing for such things. They dry food, they keep food, you know, knowing that, okay, this season, if anything happened like this, this is food we shall carry and run with it. And then after floods, we come back. So these are communities, small, small groups that really support so much during disasters in the community. And now these refugee leaders sometimes also get training. They can apply for different training about disaster so that they learn how to support their community effectively. Because when disaster happens, refugees are always alone. We've seen during COVID very good example. During COVID, COVID exposed a lot of things. During COVID most international organization closed their doors. So no, we are not working. We are not working. It is the refugee led organizations that supported community.

[00:21:28.450] 

We have introduced different traditional ways of, you know, surviving. Introducing how you can wash your hands using the hash from your kitchen. Because then there's no NGO that is bringing hand sanitizers for you. We have introduced different herbal medicine where you can boil, mix together drinks. You see, these were work being done by refugee led organizations. There were no international organization in the place supporting. All of them locked themselves inside. And that has exposed what happened in the dark, that when serious problems comes, refugees are on their own, you know, so that's, that's what really happened in the community.

[00:22:27.800] 

I want to talk too about what happens if displaced people are able to go back to their origin country. I mean, ideally, many people who are displaced eventually can go back once conditions are safe enough for them to do so and once they are able to do so. But in many places there are still climate challenges upon return too. You see this sometimes in South Sudan recently, right? Many people have, especially with the war in Sudan, people have come back to South Sudan, but there are climate challenges that they face too. Can you talk about the, some of the climate and the environmental challenges that people, refugees and other displaced people face when, if they go back to their origin country. I mean, what, what challenges are there?

[00:23:11.060] 

I will give examples of my country, South Sudan. I returned to South Sudan in 2008 from Uganda.

[00:23:21.540] 

In 2008.

[00:23:23.220] 

Yes. And we were taken to my village. I saw my village for the first time. I was very excited. And what I've seen happening in my village is that people live together because of the fear. These are people living the settlements for long. So if they go back home, they want to live in one place. You want to stay next to someone, you know. And due to lack of drinking water, people settle along the river. And so every year during rainy seasons, the Nile basin bursts. It washed so many things, it destroys home animals, you know, shelters, institutions, the health centers, the school. And you have to move again. Although in Eastern Equatoria, this doesn't happen so often.

[00:24:33.420] 

But in Upper Nile in different parts of South Sudan.

[00:24:37.820] 

Yeah. Yes. In Upper Nile region, that happen almost three times a year, you know. And this is just someone who has just gone back from resettlement. Yeah, they are so happy, excited, you know, being at home. And again, disaster comes, so during rainy season, people should be digging. But in South Sudan is opposite. In Upper Nile region, during rainy season, you have to be relocating. And government doesn't support, organization doesn't support. I have seen women carrying their fellow pregnant women on their back crossing, you know, the flooded areas, in search of a safe place where a woman should deliver. I have seen women, you know, they carry children, young children, children from the neighbors crossing the river so that they take children to a safer place. And most children in that area, they don't go to school. And this happens every year. And if you see the population of South Sudanese in the settlement majority are people from Upper Nile region. You know, they're the one moving to the settlements in Uganda because of the floods and droughts that happens there every year. So these are the fears. But also there's no policy, you know, that really supports integration, proper integration.

[00:26:16.710] 

Because then if, if, if government and organization would support maybe, you know, putting a good structure that would prevent you from, you know, your, your house from being flooded or even saying, you know, this area is not good, let people settle the other side, you know, and then drilled borehole for, you know, to provide drinking water so that then people move away from the riverside knowing they have drinking water. Because what is keeping people along the river is because there's no drinking water.

[00:26:55.360] 

More intentional kind of planning to help.

[00:26:59.680] 

Yes, yes.

[00:27:02.250] 

We are almost out of time, but I guess my last question is, is there anything we have not discussed that our listeners ought to know about? You have a unique vantage point, I guess. What do you wish people better understood about the challenges that climate change creates and overlays on top of existing concerns and problems facing refugees?

[00:27:24.410] 

And what I would like to leave with my listeners is that refugees should be allowed to be on the table discuss their own matters because they understand their problems, they know the solutions, but they don't have resources. So it is important that partners co create with the refugee community so that the projects is developed to solve refugees problem and such projects that are co created with refugees are always, you know, received well by the refugee community. And so it's very important that we co create with the refugee community.

[00:28:22.170] 

That seems like a good note to end on, so we will wrap things up there. Ayoo, thank you so much for your time and your thoughts. This was a very great, valuable conversation. I very much appreciate the unique perspective you bring to our audience. Thank you for your time.

[00:28:35.930] 

Thank you so much and also thank you for interviewing me.

[00:28:39.770] 

Ayoo Irene Hellen, who is herself a refugee, is a partnership officer at Last Mile Climate and an Emeritus Fellow with Refugees International. Thank you so much for listening to this, our 50th episode of Changing Climate, Changing Migration. If this is your first time listening to this podcast, you've got some catching up to do. You can find all of the episodes of this and other MPI podcasts on our website at migrationpolicy.org slash podcasts. While you're on the site, please subscribe to the Migration Information Source newsletter, which is the twice a month email newsletter that we send out showcasing smart analysis on migration developments, trends and policies all around the world. And even though this is our 50th episode, we are not done yet. Subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts and you can stay on top of all of our regular releases. Please also leave us a five star review which bring really goes a long way in boosting us in the rankings and increasing our visibility. This episode was produced by Daniella Espacio. Michelle Middlestadt provided editorial oversight. Additional assistance came from Lisa Dixon. Our theme music is a song called Touch by Patrick Patrikios.

[00:30:06.930] 

My name is Julian Hattem. Thank you so much again for tuning in. I'll see you soon.