The Role of Counselling & Reintegration Support in Shaping Migrants’ Return Decisions

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[00:00:00.10] - Camille Le Coz

Good morning. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Camille Le Coz, and I'm the director of the Migration Policy Institute Europe. And I'd like to welcome you to our briefing on the role of counselling and reintegration support in shaping migrants' return decision. We're joined by 4 speakers today to talk about a report we just released as part of a cooperation with the Research and Data Centre at the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security. And before we get started into the discussion, I'll first hand over to my colleague Ravenna Sohst, who's been leading this research and will explain why we've been looking into the topic of counselling and reintegration, what our research methodology was, what the data has been telling us, and finally, what our recommendations are. Ravenna, over to you.

[00:00:51.03] - Ravenna Sohst

Thank you very much, Camille. I'm very glad to be here and share some of the findings from our study. But first, let us have a look at the context of the study and what motivated us to conduct this research. So in the Netherlands and across the EU, as many of you will know, only a small share of those migrants who are ordered to leave actually depart. And there are many challenges to enforcing returns. Perhaps the most important ones can be summarised in 3 groups. One is authorities' limited capacities and lack of coordination. So this is capacities within the country or within the European Union and coordination also within those actors. There's also a challenge relating to the absence of readmission agreements or otherwise cooperation with origin countries, which can make enforcing returns more challenging. And finally, of course, there's migrants' reluctance themselves to return to their countries of origin. And so in this country, in this context, over the past years, the Dutch government and also other, other countries have tried to improve compliance with return orders and encourage the uptake of assisted return via different approaches, namely via introducing different counselling approaches and also by working with a range of partners to offer reintegration assistance after return.

But still, we face gaps in understanding exactly whether or how or when counselling and reintegration assistance really interact and how they interact with return decision-making. And this is what we try to answer in the study. To understand these questions better, we applied a mixed methods approach combining quantitative and qualitative data. Namely quantitative data that were provided to us from the Dutch Departure and Repatriation Service, DTenV, where we received case data of 118,000 observed case outflows between 2017 and 2023. And we combined this with a rich set of interviews, over 50, namely conducted with migrants that had received a returning order from the Netherlands and had returned to either Nigeria or Iraq, but also with DTenV policy advisors, EU stakeholders, and representatives from civil society, NGOs, and international organisations, both in Iraq, in the Netherlands, in the European Union, and in Nigeria. And finally, we also visited two Dutch reception centres where we shadowed counselling sessions and spoke with counsellors in these centres. And now I want to jump right into the results first and look first into what factors influence return decisions. And this is really not very new. There is plenty of research in the migration field that has confirmed this, that there's really a wide variety of factors that influence not only return decisions but migration decision-making more broadly.

And that includes conditions in the country of origin, such as economic opportunities, political instability, security conditions, and so on. Conditions in the host country. And here I'm thinking specifically about the degree of social embedding, social networks, but also things like access to housing, access to make an income and work, and the risk of immigration enforcement. Personal circumstances, namely family responsibilities, gender roles, but also just personal aspirations for their own lives. And finally, policy interventions. And here we understand policy interventions as things like counselling, reintegration assistance, but also detention or reintegration bans. And I think it is important to know upfront here that while we know all of these factors influence return decision-making. It has also been shown already that policy intervention play a relatively minor role compared to all of these other factors that influence return decision-making. But just because it's minor doesn't mean it's not important. And so we wanted to really understand how they shape the return decision-making process. And here we come to this figure, which comes out of our discussions with returning migrants. And what we found is that returning migrants show a whole range, a whole spectrum of circumstances in how they respond to the external incentives such as counselling or reintegration assistance.

And I want to give you a few examples to clarify what I mean here. For instance, when we start on the right-hand side here where we see the high agency and own decision-making figures, we spoke with, we spoke with migrants that essentially decided on their own will to return because, for instance, they had become ill and wanted to be reunited with family members. And so in this case, counselling really focused mostly on logistical aspects of helping them perhaps get a diplomatic laissez-passer or organise their return flight. So this really— there was a high agency in their own decision-making. And then we move into these middle categories that here we called acceptance or hopelessness. Where perhaps those migrants had initially hoped to stay, but over the course of discussions, they finally come to accept that they, that they won't be able to stay. And this is, for instance, the case for a woman from Baghdad that I spoke with who had applied for asylum in the Netherlands, had been rejected, and then after several conversations with her counsellors, where she understood sort of her legal options and situation, she accepted the return decision and returned, in this case, with the help of IOM.

And then finally, here on the left-hand side of this figure, we really move more into the area of coerced compliance and a very low degree of agency. And to just illustrate this, in this case, I spoke with one person, a Nigerian man who had been already in administrative detention in the Netherlands and refused to return voluntarily, also after living for several years in irregularity and without a legal status in the Netherlands. And in the very last moment where already his deportation flight was scheduled, he contacted IOM and departed still voluntarily. So that already shows a little bit what different circumstances we understand and we look at when we speak of assisted return and how that interacts with the possibilities of counselling, for instance, and what role that, that can provide. And with that, I also want to go a little bit deeper into what we understand with counselling, because counselling really is an umbrella term that encompasses very different approaches, actors, and goals. And it's very important to understand exactly what we talk about to see what is possible under this. And I want to start with the purpose column here because I think that's an important entry point.

Often when we speak about counselling, the idea is that we speak about return counselling. So here the focus is on achieving compliance with return orders and essentially a sort of persuasion to accept that return decision. Often return counselling is provided by state actors such as DTenV, who has also developed a dedicated methodology for that, like for instance, the WIGK methodology. But other actors who are also very active in this field often apply very different methodologies. For instance, NGOs or civil society actors work in much more non-directional ways of counseling. And here we look more into the case resolution type of counselling, which hopes to, or which aims to solve a case not simply by return, but also offering other options such as applying for a new legal status. It could be onward migration or other options. And that's really a more comprehensive type of counselling. And then finally, counselling also encompasses things like legal counselling, which is more specific, right? Expert-driven counselling that aims specifically at understanding legal options and explain different next steps and so on. And finally, there is reintegration counselling, which more narrowly is focused on preparing the return once a return decision has already been made.

So those are the very operational and logistical aspects that are about traveling and planning for reintegration assistance. In our interviews and in our analysis, what we found also was that the timing of counselling plays a major role in what it can achieve and how it can interact with return decision-making. For instance, early on, shortly after, for instance, a first application was lodged, migrants often focus on obtaining a legal status. And not yet on return. So there is not really the space, for instance, to discuss return options. However, it has also been found through our interviews, for instance, that it is still helpful to mention return and discuss options because this kind of helps to plant a seed of awareness which can then help to raise this discussion later on. Second, there is a key point once a leaving order has been issued or once a person receives a negative decision on their application. This really is a critical decision-making point, as at this point, often the initial project that has been built collapses and there has to be a reorientation in terms of how they see their future and what type of priorities they want to pursue.

And so in this moment, there are really opportunities for both legal counselling— that's very important to clarify— verify, but also return counselling because the decision-making process is quite open at this moment. And then thirdly, another very different situation is for migrants that have stayed in the country, in the host country, for prolonged periods of time, often without a legal status or moving between statuses or moving between countries. And in those cases, the situations are really much more complex, both legally and socially, because we see compounded difficulties in terms of homelessness, health issues, and others. And so in these cases, what we found is that counselling that accounts for all of these interacting difficulties, such as case resolution counselling, is often more promising than, let's say, a narrow type of counselling that's focused just on return. In the interest of time, I will go, I will be relatively speedy, but The impact of lengthy return procedures also has an impact on whether or not migrants decide to take up assisted return. This is what comes out of our analysis of DTenV case data. Of course, return procedures vary widely between migrants. For instance, in this dataset that we used, there was, there was between 1 and 15 return procedures for one person alone that they had started with DTenV.

And what we found is really that there's a strong relationship between the number of records a migrant has with DTenV, which means, which stands for a prolonged period of time that they've been in the country and repeated procedures, and a reduced likelihood of choosing assisted return. For instance, in our model, which is a regression model, we would expect that 19% of those migrants with one return procedure, so relatively short time, would depart via assisted return. And that reduces drastically to just 9% for those who have 3 procedures and reduces even more drastically to 2% for migrants that have really a large number of procedures, 6 return procedures with DTenV. And that's also a result that aligns with prior research, which also suggests that prolonged stay in the host country may decrease migrants' willingness or their ability also to engage in assisted return. And then finally, a piece of our results, which you can find in our report, is on the role of reintegration assistance. And as I've already hinted before, we found really that the offer of reintegration assistance is really a major incentive for return, but it can be a supportive factor, especially for those that already are considering this option.

So here I'm thinking again to those people that have higher agency, might already think about wanting to return, then this can really make a difference. But for the majority of persons facing a return order, it is not the primary incentive. However, what we also found is that it helps address other policy priorities, for instance, and most importantly, reintegration assistance helps reduce vulnerability directly after return when it's really most needed. It can help build also on the longer term, but that is more difficult, a source of income, address trauma or stress, and help with the reintegration in their communities. And also on a bilateral, more political level, facilitate dialog between the host country and origin countries. However, we also found in our study that reintegration assistance is still very difficult on the ground and that some of the critical needs are sometimes overlooked or cannot be quite implemented as, as they were planned. And now let's move to, to our recommendations. First, recommendations regarding counselling. One thing that came out of our study, and that's quite clear, is that we need to prioritise counselling at key decision-making moments. So this is, for instance, counselling early on that shares on— that focuses on information sharing and some legal advice, but then also, and notably, counselling, for instance, after a negative decision or an issuance of an order to leave.

Second, what came out very clearly from our study is that working with reintegration partners in countries of origin is extremely important, both in the counselling process in the outreach and also in the reintegration process. That is because the language, the culture, and local realities can just be better transported and discussed with these partners. And therefore, there's also a need to strengthen their capacity and involvement in these steps. And related to that is the recommendation to improve country- and diaspora-specific knowledge among counsellors. This is something that can be done not just with reintegration partners, but also with counsellors in the country, in the Netherlands, for instance, who can improve their knowledge of the diaspora and of the country context, and which helps them enter into a trusted dialog and knowledge-based dialog around return. And finally, we recommend to explore safe and voluntary ways to engage with family and community members. We know this can be difficult because the family relations can be, can be quite sensitive and can in some cases be a risk factor. For instance, when we think about survivors of trafficking or so on. But where there is willingness on behalf of the returning migrants to engage with the family, this is a pathway that should be pursued and further strengthened.

And then finally, some recommendations more on the strategy and partnership level. One is to clarify really the strategic purpose of counselling and reintegration assistance. What we found in our report is that neither counselling nor reintegration assistance are probably the primary drivers why migrants decide to choose assisted return. But there is still important value to both of these policy tools, and it is important to understand this value and also pursue it as explicit goals in, in policymaking. The second is to invest in increasing legal system capacity and efficiency that relates, for instance, to reducing lengthy procedures, but also increasing cooperation between the different actors that are involved in this, which of course should not be done at the expense of due process, but really can help, yeah, provide better, produce better outcomes for both the experts involved in this process and the migrants themselves. We recommend enhancing the diversity of approaches and actors involved in the counselling. I think it was very clear from our research and our conversations with the different partners that one partner cannot do it all. It is important to have civil society actors, for instance, be there because they can provide a more trusted environment, especially for migrants that have been staying for a long time without a legal status, versus other partners that can provide other types of support.

And finally, there are some steps toward that goal, but there is still relatively few systematic insight and monitoring of counselling methods and approaches. And to improve that over time, it is really important to feed this back and make this approach, which is really a practice-driven approach, one that is based on evidence and on insights that are gained through continued monitoring and evaluations. With that, I'll hand over back to Camille and our panellists. Thank you very much.

[00:19:17.21] - Camille Le Coz

Thank you very much, Ravenna, for sharing this overview of our report, and I encourage you to consult it. There is much more, including on all the analysis that we've done, both of the qualitative data but also of the quantitative data. But I now want to turn to our third speaker, Claudia van der Horst, who is Senior Advisor on Knowledge and Strategy at the Repatriation and Departure Service at the Ministry of Asylum and Migration in the Netherlands. Elena Cavagni, who is Project Lead Leader at the Dutch Council for Refugees, and Osita Osemene, who is Project Director for the Patriotic Citizen Initiative in Nigeria. So the three of you have been working with us through this study. We've been exchanging a lot on what we found, on the recommendation as well. I'd like to circle back with you on all of this funding, starting with you, Claudia, because as Ravenna was mentioning, DTenV has developed its own counselling technique. Their aim is to convince migrants to accept to cooperate with return order. And what our research has shown in our engagement with different partners, with also the returnees, that the application of this technique still is still viable, that there is a variety of approach that may be needed to meaningfully engage with all the different profile of migrants.

And so from DTenV perspective, I was interested in your take on how you can better account for these different migrant profiles, both in terms of the counselling approach, but also the cooperation with the partners.

[00:20:59.01] - Claudia van der Horst

Yes, thank you, Camille, for this question. First, I think it's worth mentioning that the Repatriation Service works since the beginning in 2007 with case management and a tailored approach for each case. And we acknowledge that assisted return is the preferred option compared to forced return. And to strengthen our professional practice, we utilise the methodology that's called Working Within a Compulsory Framework. And that methodology is developed by the Utrecht University of Applied Sciences. And it is aimed at removing barriers to return as much as possible. And key tools include motivational interviewing techniques and has a strong focus on intercultural communication. With that being said, I think the research highlights several points that helps us improve as an organisation. For instance, it highlights that the methodology is currently applied with varying degrees of consistency. It is very essential that the caseworkers— and we call them departure supervisors within our organisation— that they are not only well trained in the methodology, but also possess a deeper knowledge of the culture and situations of the migrants and the countries of origin. And this is necessary, as the research shows, to facilitate better conversations. And the findings of this reinforce our intention to put in more effort in this area.

And therefore, we are currently exploring together with our language and culture specialists, which is a relatively new role within the Repatriation Service, how to meet this specific need. And I think furthermore, we have to take into account the three primary drivers in migrants' decision-making process. And Ravenna also mentioned the conditions in the country of origin, the family situation, and the social support network in the Netherlands. And I think it's important that the caseworkers recognise and explicitly address these factors during return counselling sessions. And I think that can be maybe more clearly than sometimes may be the case at present. And also take into account where the person stands on the spectrum of agency, which was good to see that in the presentation. Earlier on. But of course, at the same time, we acknowledge that as a government organisation, we cannot always connect with every target group. And to bridge this gap, we fund NGO projects that, that provide specialised reintegration supports. And therefore, we find it important then, by fostering a diverse landscape of return supports alongside the efforts of EURP, and IOM, we hope to aim to have a more— align our services better for diverse profiles of migrants.

[00:24:23.01] - Camille Le Coz

Thank you. And I'll just spell out the acronym you referred to. The EURP is the European Union Reintegration Program that's managed by Frontex. I'll turn to you, Elena, because our report, but also previous research, found that a trusted environment was key to engage in meaningful conversation on return, and especially with people who've lived for some time without a legal status. Your organisation have been involved in this counselling. So from your perspective, what does such counselling look like? And from a civil society angle, what's needed for NGOs to be able to provide such care?

[00:25:05.27] - Elena Cavagni

Thank you, Camille, and everyone. Indeed, the Dutch Council of Refugees as an NGO has been involved in this field of counselling undocumented people already since 10 years, more than 10 years. And I must say, I welcome the recommendations that come out of this report regarding counselling, a better integration of forces and more coordination among all the partners. So we're also looking forward to keep thinking together with our partners on how Hadi's recommendation can be even more brought in practice. To come to your question, I think that it needs to be a structure and conditions in which the trust and the safety of the client can thrive between her, the client, and the counsellor. And in our experience, intensive counselling before departure on an early stage and also after, a very good counselling also after the return, are key in order to have an accepted return successful, meaning that is in a safe way and is sustainable and that it's with dignity. There are a number of preconditions that I think is important to name. It is that there must be a legal clarity in the procedure of the client. We do advocate also for stability throughout this process so that someone can have have the, um, had the, the safety and had the stability to think of the future, um, and that also the safety of the country of origin needs to be assessed, um, throughout this process.

Uh, we do, uh, these, uh, in the, in the Dutch Council of Refugees before departure with what in the, um, uh, report is called, I think, a case-to-case resolution. And with reintegration counselling. And within these two services that we provide, where had a tailor— a tailor-made approach is very important, and the needs of the people gets a big space. I would also want to highlight the role of partners' organisations, of our trusted partner organisations that can play a key role in order to help people really get well informed. This is our main aim, that people can make a well-informed decision for themselves. And this is why also the partners' organisation in the country of origin that can be trusted and can also deliver a service that doesn't end up just at the airport or when their integration budget is done, but that can really provide any information before and after with that trust within the community, that voluntary return can be a good option for some of our clients.

[00:28:39.22] - Camille Le Coz

Thanks, Elena. And that gives us a good segue for me to now turn to Osita, who's joining us from Nigeria, because her report underlined the importance precisely of involving trusted, as Elena was saying, origin country actors early on so that return and reintegration option can be discussed with a person who is aware of the local circumstances, speak the same language. And so here, my question for you, Osita, is how how could cooperation between Patriotic Citizen Initiative, but Dutch-based Consular be strengthened before people actually travel back to Nigeria?

[00:29:21.29] - Osita Osemene

Yeah, thank you so much for this privilege that you have given to me, and I want to appreciate the researchers for this wonderful report, and that reflects the how we can manage reception and return of migrants. In our various countries. Yeah, one of the things that we have, we are using in our country, especially with our partnership with the Netherlands, is a coordinated pre-return approach, which is very essential, you know, that provides returnees with dignity. We ensure that we have a coordinated approach in terms of return to ensure that we give the kind of confidence and the courage on these returnees. And another one is the engagement of the local partner that is being done practically by the Dutch Council for Refugees. Early engagement of the local partner like PCI, Patriotic Citizen Initiative in Nigeria, we're always involved in the pre-departure counselling at every point in time. And regularly, you know, I can count, you know, as many as possible number of times that we engage with a lot of intending returnees in Netherlands that want to come back. You know, that has also been a very good practice in terms of ensuring that return is dignified, and some of these returnees are able to accept this return.

And another thing is the engagement of local partners in Nigeria, which we as an organisation, Patriotic Citizen Initiative, have also use it as a, as a, as a tool to ensure that return is a holistic approach. We involve the government, you know, the government at the level of the coordinating agency in Nigeria. We also involve the government at the border, which is the Nigeria Immigration Service, which stays at the airport to ensure that when returnees come, they are not harassed at the airport, because some of these are some of the fears that comes among these return migrants when they want to come. Then our other thing is You know, so we, we also try to provide a kind of a safe environment for them when they come back. Because when you engage local partners like government agencies, civil society, and they are involved in the reception, which we are doing with our partners, you know, it gives opportunity for this, some of these returnees to access some of this support system when they come back to Nigeria. So in the course of our counselling, during the pre-departure counselling, we give them assurance of the existing realities.

In Nigeria, things that, you know, that are real, things that they are not— we're not telling them that is so palatable in country when they come, but things how they are going to overcome some of these challenges and the support they are going to get from the local partners. And also we practice what they call follow-up system. You know, we let them know that once they return, they will not be left behind, that there is also an opportunity for the local organisations to link them up to existing opportunities. In Nigeria. So these are some of the practices and some of the counselling we provide for them when we are working with our partners in Netherlands. Thank you.

[00:32:36.26] - Camille Le Coz

Thank you very much, Osita. I'll go back to Claudia to ask you about a point that Ravenna mentioned, because what we found is that prolonged stays without legal status actually reduce the likelihood that migrant will opt for assisted return. From your perspective, building on the report, but also other work that is ongoing, what could DTenV do to reach people earlier in the procedure while they may be more open to discussing different future options?

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[00:33:09.09] - Speaker 3

Yes, thank you. I think it's very good to see in this research that it's important to reach people early on. The question is how early. So Ravenna also in her presentation gave a great view on what time and what is appropriate at what time to reach out to people. The Repatriation Service aims to approach migrants immediately after the first negative decision by the immigration service. And at this stage, the migrant is still awaiting the outcome of the court proceedings. So they are not yet legally removable, but This is the time when we first start our first conversations about return, because accordingly to our method, our framework, this phase offers time and space for more open and constructive conversation about return. But of course, it could be possible to inform migrants about return options at an earlier stage, which is quite, of course, delicate. How to, how to, how to make that possible. So we are currently exploring the development of a dedicated information platform for migrants, which will bring together all the relevant information related to return. But this initiative is still under development. But that would be an option. And I think finally, we invest in close cooperation with the Central Agency of the Reception of Asylum Seekers, the COA.

[00:34:59.26] - Speaker 3

As a reception organisation, they have a strong relationship with residents, and they are, I think, well positioned to raise the topic of return with migrants in a very early, but also a timely and appropriate manner. Of course, as an organisation, we have no influence on the lengthy asylum procedures at the moment, and in some cases, subsequent legal applications that hinder the likelihood of assisted return, as the data shows in the research. So, well, that I think, I hope, answers the question.

[00:35:41.08] - Speaker 1

Thanks, Claudia, for this point. And I'll now turn back to you, Elena, because Another point we've mentioned in research, and that also is mentioned in our chat with question, is that these return decisions are often shaped by family, by community expectation, not just by individual preferences. And so we've been thinking about how could counselling better take this collective dimension into account, for example, by involving family, by involving diaspora networks, while also mindful that This could put extra pressure on migrants, compromise even their safety. So this would need to be done with a wide range of safeguards.

[00:36:24.00] - Speaker 4

Thank you. Thank you for this question because it highlights a very key dimension of the counselling. We know that family and networks' expectations are key throughout the decision-making process. And we know that without the support of family and networks, return is very challenging due to psychological and practical reasons. We know that shame and stigma play a big role in the communities of origin. Individuals fear the judgment and also to fall out of society. But this is why we do need a lot of space. We would like to take the space to speak at length about these topics in order to build trust, in order to be able to speak about very sensitive topics that not necessarily come in one conversation. And again, the role of partner organisations here are key. And here I would like also to mention that we do look a bit with hesitance towards the new developments of the policies in the field of return with the coming of EURP, because we are used to work NGO to NGO with very trusted partners that can give the time to counsel at a very early stage and build the trust with our clients beforehand, and that then we can do the monitoring.

[00:38:00.11] - Speaker 4

Now with EURP, many of these pillars are going to— we see that they may be eroded. So we are bracing ourselves to see what will happen. But so far, I can say that the role of partner organisations, and of course also the diaspora community, I would like to mention, which there is always too little investment, I would say, from practitioners and policymakers. So in the country of origin, but from the experience. So there, for example, we can learn a lot also as a Dutch Council of Refugees. But from our experience, the role of partners, organisations that are independent from the government, that are rooted in the community, that can give their expertise and time before the departure when is needed, also early on in a stage, and that then can— with whom we can think of also for the monitoring, that has been so far a very important aspects of the counselling in order to engage family members that are part of, actually, the bigger community where the partner organisation is or comes from.

[00:39:21.10] - Speaker 1

Thank you very much, Elena, and for also raising the point on what the future of counselling will look like in Europe with the future role of Frontex and this EU Reintegration Program in it and the partnership with with NGOs that, that could be reached. I'll turn to Osita again and to echo upon that Elena was making about the fact that when people return, they often face stigma, economic hardships, feeling of shame, feeling of failure. This has come up a lot in the interview that we've conducted both in Iraq and in Nigeria. Some also struggle to implement the reintegration plan as was initially designed. I mean, this is a big question for you. You, but, you know, from, from your perspective being involved in this, in delivering this assistance, what, what could be done to improve the effectiveness of reintegration assistance?

[00:40:19.19] - Speaker 5

Yeah, I think first of all, we have to take into cognisance the fact that the local partner involvement is very, very key and important, and local partner that is well informed about the status of the returnee, you know, is very key. Now, looking at the status of the returnee, we have to put it into consideration when returnees are returning that it has to be individualistic in the sense that every return migrant has a special need and has a special case. Their case varies, you know, it is not— we don't generalise their case. So it's a case-by-case management. You know, and we, we have to look at it from that angle that the support has to be given to them due to their personal needs and also tailored towards their reintegration plan. So one of the things we will look, we're looking at is how we can best attend to these returnees according to their needs and ensure that we provide them with the necessary supports like the livelihood support, you know, psychosocial support, and involvement of their family and friends, you know, because we have observed that most times some of these returnees get recovered fast through family support and friends.

[00:41:38.27] - Speaker 5

And also, we are also looking at how we can deepen our partnership and engagement with government and other civil society that have different activities that they can provide for some of these returnees. You know, we have, we have cases in Nigeria of people who have returned from Netherlands and other countries. At the end of the day, some of the that are provided for them are not enough. But we as local partners in Nigeria, we have to look out for other supports, other systems in Nigeria that we can link them up to so that they can access the support. We have cases of people who have returned and they have assessed some opportunities and their recovery is faster. So we, part of the ways we can improve on this is also deepening that partnership, you know, collaboration in Nigeria and also exchange, you know, a kind of experience sharing among international partners and local partners, and visits, you know. We have practiced— Netherlands have visited Nigeria to see how it works in Nigeria, and also PCI have visited the Netherlands. You know, we have visited the detention centres to interact with some of these returnees to know their plights and their needs.

[00:42:56.06] - Speaker 5

Some of these good practices can be looked upon and see how we can continue to engage in these good practices. To improve reintegration supports that are being given to some of these returnees. Thank you.

[00:43:11.29] - Speaker 1

Thank you, Osita, and also for flagging, for pointing the added value of this exchange, the visit of Dutch officials in Nigeria and vice versa. I'll now open the floor for questions. I saw there was already quite a few, so I'll turn back to you, Osita and Elena. One question we had was on, you know, practical entry point for engagement with diaspora organisation. You know, from your perspective, do you have a concrete example of this and what has been the added value for reintegration for people over time?

[00:43:51.03] - Speaker 4

Shall I go and then you can fill in, Osita? So in our experience, Diaspora organisations can be really helpful in approaching people that's maybe interested in return is a, in my experience, a less controversial topic than in other networks. And they, they do have of course the, the, the tools, the resources, the, the, the cultural resources to to bring the topic in a constructive way at the service of the person in need. And in this I have a great example that had taken place last year with Osita when he was here in the Netherlands for a partner organisation, for a partner exchange, where he has been able to meet the diaspora network in Amsterdam, the diaspora networks, the diaspora organisations, because there is not only just one. And this may lead to great partnerships if there is the space, because of course then it comes to policy and resources if it's possible then to make this collaboration flourish. But the potential is absolutely there, and I've seen it when Osita was able to meet them.

[00:45:21.11] - Speaker 1

Osita, I'll turn to you now.

[00:45:23.20] - Speaker 5

Yes, like what Elena just mentioned, yes, last year, was it early this year, you know, I was privileged to have a town hall meeting with the Nigerian communities in Netherlands and the different communities, you know, across, you know, we had an opportunity of discussing about the realities in Nigeria and how these realities you know, can be showcased to our intending return migrants in the Netherlands. And it was very fruitful because a lot of Nigerians were there, and the Nigerian community were able to understand from the point of view and from the way I have explained it to them, and also the way they are going to get involved and support these returnees that are prepared. And after that meeting, I can tell you that we have a lot of volunteers among them that said, okay, because of this meeting and the involvement of the Nigerian community in Netherlands, you know, that they you know, they see the truthfulness, you know, and the trust, you know, within the Netherlands and Nigeria. And for that, some of them have spent even 25 years, 20 years, agreed and decided to come. And a lot of them also opted for the fact that they are going to help in the campaign, you know, among the Nigerians there that are suffering or that have not gotten their— they have been denied asylum.

[00:46:42.10] - Speaker 5

They will let them know the opportunities and the realities in Nigeria and that they have opportunity to go back to their country. So I think the, the need for involvement of the Nigerians in diaspora is also very key and is very important. It can help to also improve, you know, the issue of returnees, you know, coming back to Nigeria. Thank you.

[00:47:04.07] - Speaker 1

Thank you, Osita, for, for this sharing of experience. And, and now over to Claudia, because there was a question on, um, you know, whether you could give more details on why counselling exists in the first place, um, why what has been the motivation of the government of the Netherlands to explore this area, to invest in this area in the past years?

[00:47:27.25] - Speaker 3

Thank you for that question. As I said, we as an organisation, we started in 2007, and from that moment on, we always said that assisted return was the preferred option. But assisted return and counselling I think they go hand in hand because if you want people to, to have a tailored approach in each case and to really find out what is, what, what are the motivation of people to return or not to return, you have to go and meet and, and have a conversation with the person that is in the chair opposite to you to understand what makes them tick, what is their motivation, what are their drivers. And so from the beginning on, the Repatriation Service invested in counselling, but first on, they did not have the methodical framework that came later on. And still, because the question was, Camille, I forgot the first part of the question.

[00:48:50.26] - Speaker 1

No worries. The question was, yes, about your motivation to invest in this. So you've answered, unless you want to add something.

[00:48:59.18] - Speaker 3

Yes, and of course also motivation that sometimes assisted return is the only return that we can achieve. So of course, as an organisation, um, and we have to enforce the Dutch policy that people who cannot stay, have a legal way to stay in the Netherlands, must return. But not in all cases forced departure is an option. So, um, if you look at it from that perspective also, It is also important that you always keep in mind that assisted return is one of the main goals. And I think from the first beginning on, it was also from an ethical, humane perspective, but also it's sometimes the only way to achieve return. So I hope that answers the question.

[00:49:59.21] - Speaker 1

Very much so. And I have a follow-up question for you because there were questions in the chat about what exactly DTenV counselling consists in. We go back to it in the report, so I encourage you also to consult the report. But if in a few minutes you can walk us through this. And what is the counselling that DTenV provides consist in? I mean, you refer to the methodology. Maybe when, where does that take place? Who provides this counselling? For this new—

[00:50:35.00] - Speaker 3

Yeah, so we have people that go and work at the reception centres in the Netherlands, and they, as I mentioned, from the very first beginning, when someone gets a negative decision from the immigration service, we get that case from the immigration service, and our counsellors are supervised departures. They analyse and they go, they have meetings with migrants, and they use motivational interviewing techniques and also are trained in intercultural communication. I think it's also, and I think that's not so long, but we are currently more aware that there are also the perception of procedural fairness, which is also mentioned in the research, is very important. So I think, well, Elena can give also more examples. I think it's very important that the migrant understands the legal path that has led them in the situation that they are now. And I think that we cannot do that alone, but it is necessary for our departure supervisors to have in the discussion with the migrant about return also have a lot of attention to how did you came to the Netherlands, what made you came into this situation, what is your legal position at this point. So taking into account more the total migration cycle and not just the one part of you have to return.

[00:52:25.20] - Speaker 3

But I think maybe Elena, because I think they also have— she can tell a lot more about that.

[00:52:34.00] - Speaker 4

Thank you, Claudia, because this is indeed one of the preconditions upon which we have based our counselling so far. And that's the— that there is clarity about the pathways, the legal pathways, and why a procedure has been denied. There is a difference between knowing that and accepting that. And this is why counselling is very important. Here I must also— of course, it's going to be a challenge from this year on with the budget cuts that have been done to the legal supports of the Dutch Council of Refugees to see how we can keep up the expectations and the needs of the clients. And how also the counselling, which as well has been eroded from this political decision How we can then fulfil the expectations that, for example, this report brings us to. So yeah, it is very important. In my experience, it's fundamental in order to have a conversation about return so that someone, before someone needs to accept that this is, that there is no other option. And for that, you do need guidance. So yeah, this is going to be a challenge in the Netherlands at least.

[00:54:14.03] - Speaker 1

Thanks, Elena. We have time for two last questions. So one for Ravenna and one for Osita. Ravenna, first we had a question on whether the report covers the impact of post-arrival counselling, because indeed we've seen that this is also a key component to the return and reintegration process. So over to you on this, and then Ulrike, I'll get back to you afterward.

[00:54:38.20] - Speaker 2

Yeah, thank you for the question. I saw actually in the chat box that there were several questions relating to the post-return experiences. And perhaps first to clarify, in our report, we don't look at reintegration outcomes per se, but we really look at the role of counselling and the offer of reintegration assistance on return decision-making. So that's a slightly different focus. However, for the interviews that we conducted with persons that had returned from the Netherlands to Iraq or Nigeria, we did ask them about their reintegration experiences and how that reintegration support was being used in their specific cases, which was a relatively small sample, but nonetheless. And what we found there indeed is that there, most of the reintegration support, if they had received any, because some were still ongoing or waiting for, for their support, was mostly spent on immediate needs that they required directly after return. So, for instance, a person that had returned and was facing difficulties finding accommodation or couldn't return to their families, so then they would use some of the reintegration assistance to cover temporary housing, for instance. Or to buy medical supplies, or for instance, tools such as a fan, because in that case, it was a person who lived in a camp for internally displaced persons.

[00:56:03.11] - Speaker 2

It was very hot, and so they needed something to make their living space liveable. What we found also, though, is that it was very challenging for this reintegration support to be actually what it was planned to be before the departure. In many cases, there were reintegration plans being made in the Netherlands, for instance, with their counsellors. And then once they had returned, these plans did not turn out to be feasible at all, or because needs had changed so much, or because the planning didn't really reflect local realities. So in many cases, there was a change in this planning and a move away from sort of longer-term stability towards addressing immediate And I think that is an issue that really needs more attention, that reintegration planning does actually feed into longer-term planning, does match local realities, and does address the challenges that these persons face upon return. Yeah.

[00:57:03.28] - Speaker 1

Thanks, Ravenna. And to conclude, I'll turn to you, Osita, because we had a question on to what extent government policies, but also the reintegration framework in countries of origin of this government, other role, you know, in the decision-making process of migrants, also on the expectation as to what they're going to find upon return?

[00:57:26.08] - Speaker 5

Yeah, thank you so much. On that issue of policy in Nigeria, recently the Nigerian government reviewed the National Migration Policy, which was supported by the European Union, and the review captured a lot of things that has to do with management of migration in Nigeria, you know, which has the 4 levels of conditional management and the consideration about all types of returns put into consideration where we have both the voluntary return, forced return, deportation. They were all put into consideration how these people can be supported when they return. So if I will answer your question, the policy in Nigeria has taken into cognisance the issue of all forms of return and how this return will be managed effectively. So I think what we should be looking at now is how these structures can be very effective, you know, and efficient to ensure that the plight of returnees at all level, whether it is forced return, whether it is voluntary return, you know, can be be holistically managed. But for policy issue in Nigeria, Nigeria have put that into consideration with the leadership of the National Commission for Refugees, which is the apex migration management agency in Nigeria that coordinates all the return.

[00:58:52.07] - Speaker 5

And we have government agencies that are thematic leads that are responsible for issues of reintegration, you know, that also handles it with civil society organisations, you know, that are all there. And this management, you know, looks into it from the local community to the national level. So every migration management in Nigeria, you know, the community level have been considered. So community engagement is also involved, you know, traditional rulers, religious leaders, everybody have been put into consideration to ensure that improvement of returnees and the reintegration is, you know, accommodated in Nigeria. So for policy level, Nigeria has scored, like I would say, maybe they have scored some level of percentage, but a lot needs to be done to ensure that the issue of returnees are still done, handled in a very humane way. Thank you.

[00:59:51.27] - Speaker 1

Thank you very much. And with this, I want to close for today. Thanks everyone for joining us for this launch of this important report. I'm aware we had many questions, and so we'll follow up by email, and please don't hesitate to reach out to Ravenna and I. An audio and a video recording will also be available on the event website, as well as a report that my colleague Lisa posted on the slide on the screen. So thank you all and have a good end of the day.