New Avenues to Help Refugees Get to Safety and Restart Their Lives

This transcript was generated using AI and may contain inaccuracies. If you notice an error, feel free to email [email protected].

CHAPTERS 

[00:01:17]: What Is Talent Beyond Boundaries?
[00:04:12]: Barriers Refugees Face in Standard Immigration Processes
[00:06:17]: Refugee Skills and Employer Demand
[00:09:24]: Post-Arrival Support and Integration Challenges
[00:14:15]: Scalability and Cost of Labor Pathways
[00:18:09]: Complementary vs. Traditional Resettlement Pathways
[00:20:37]: Policy Priorities and Global Forum Outlook

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:03.09] 

Welcome to the World of Migration, a podcast from the Migration Policy Institute, one of the world's top think tanks studying international migration. My name is Susan Fratzke and I'm a Senior Policy Analyst at MPI, where my work mostly focuses on humanitarian protection and refugee resettlement. Since the summer of 2021, refugees and forced displacement have made their way back into the headlines in most of the high-income world. And the event that really precipitated this was the fall of Kabul to the Taliban in August of 2021, which led to nearly 80,000 people being evacuated from Afghanistan to the U.S., Europe and elsewhere in the immediate aftermath. And today, tens of thousands of Afghans are still looking for a way out. Then, just a few months later, In February of 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine, driving nearly 8 million Ukrainians to flee to Europe. And of course, the Ukrainian and Afghan crises come on top of long standing refugee and displacement situations like Syria, Venezuela, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and of course the Rohingya in Burma. And these crises have increased pressure to find new ways to connect people who have been displaced with opportunities to find safety and eventually resume their lives.

[00:01:16.21] 

One of the ideas that's been floated by the UN Refugee agency and others is the concept of complementary pathways. Complementary pathways are meant to operate alongside traditional avenues for refugees like asylum or resettlement. And the idea is that rather than waiting years for the UN refugee agency to find a spot for a refugee in a resettlement program, or having refugees use a smuggler to move on their own, humanitarian migrants with skills and experience might be able to use an existing work or study visa to move to destination countries and take up a job or study at a university and eventually rebuild their lives and livelihood. Complementary pathways are a bright spot in a global protection system that's increasingly under stress. And I couldn't think of anyone better to discuss the innovations that we're seeing in this space than our guest today, Betsy Fisher. Betsy is the U.S. Director of Talent Beyond Boundaries, a global nonprofit organization that has worked for the last several years to identify refugees with in demand skills and connects them with employers and job opportunities in destination countries. Welcome, Betsy.

[00:02:20.10] 

Thanks Susan, for having me.

[00:02:22.00] 

Could you start by telling me a little bit more about what Talent Beyond Boundaries does?

[00:02:26.10] 

Sure, TBB Talent Beyond Boundaries has a vision where displaced people can safely migrate for work and use their skills to rebuild their lives. So let's just take a quick example of what our work looks like. As an example, TBB advocated over several years with the Canadian government to create a pilot program called the Economic Mobility Pathways Pilot, or MPP, which lets refugees move to Canada to fill job vacancies. So a Syrian refugee in Jordan named Daniel was displaced and living in limbo for several years, even though he had a bachelor's degree in IT from a leading Syrian university. And when he heard about TBB from a friend, he registered in our database, which we call the Talent Catalog. And when TBB was then contacted by a Canadian employer who needed it experts we identified Daniel and other refugees who we thought would be good candidates. We helped them update their CVs, prepare for interviews. And after Daniel excitingly secured the job offer, TBB supported him in the visa and mobility process. And they're now able to live with a good income as permanent residents in Canada. So to summarize how that breaks down into three big categories, we help refugees match with employers globally in need of their skills.

[00:03:48.07] 

We advocate with governments to open labor mobility pathways for displaced people. And we build collaborative partnerships to match refugees with jobs to bring employers, governments, and other partners into the movement.

[00:04:01.10] 

And why would someone like Daniel not be able to travel on a regular immigration program? Why wasn't he able to apply just like anyone else for a study or

[00:04:11.21] 

work visa in Canada? MPP works through traditional immigrant employment based visa programs, but it relaxes some of the documentary requirements. If we shift focuses a little bit and talk about the United States where I work, U.S. employment-based visas have many requirements that are standard for people applying based on jobs or family, but are really challenging for refugees. A great example is a requirement to have a current passport. Many refugees have never had a passport because they're stateless or they're subject to persecution if they approach a government. There may not be a consulate where they live or work, and going to that consulate, if there is one, might put them in danger.

[00:04:54.12] 

And how do you actually go about then changing those requirements for refugees? I mean, something like the requirement to have a passport seems like it would actually be a pretty difficult barrier to overcome.

[00:05:07.18] 

So TPB published a report on these obstacles last fall. And we think that the Biden administration in the U.S. Can make many of these changes themselves without legislation and in many cases without even regulatory changes. We just need political will to do it. So if someone is qualified for a job and they have an employer who wants to hire them, then a passport is a pretty minor obstacle to prevent that person from rebuilding their lives and to hold that community and that employer back. So to continue with that example, the U.S. Already has policies that consular officials can waive their requirement to have a current passport for some people. But that policy is desperately in need of being updated to improve access for refugees and stateless people to be able to travel when they're already qualified based on family or work.

[00:05:59.21] 

And do you, I mean, TBB has done a lot of work with refugees, as you said, directly in some of these countries. Do you have a sense based on that, you know, whether or not refugees would really have the skills to be able to qualify for these programs? I mean, the UN refugee agency, for example, has estimated that three quarters of the world's refugees are in situations that have lasted for five years or more and during that time they've often not had access to work or to school. Do they actually have the skills to, to fill some of the job vacancies that you're looking at?

[00:06:36.02] 

So what we're seeing is that refugees frequently have skills that are in urgent demand. We think about the labor shortages in the U.S. canada, Australia and the U.K. where TBB is currently operating. The skills of refugees is not a problem and the willingness of employers to hire is not a problem. The obstacle is 100% the challenges, in some cases the futility of U.S. Immigration processes. What we've seen in other countries where TBB has successfully advocated for programs dedicated to refugees is that removing the obstacles that refugees uniquely face in employment based programs makes this a winning program for governments, for employers and communities and for refugees. And that employers are overwhelmingly satisfied with the people they've hired through our programs.

[00:07:32.03] 

Are there particular sectors that you see as particularly promising or where you're getting a lot of interest?

[00:07:37.14] 

We think that some of the biggest places for promise are in it, whether that be programming or analytics. We're still seeing layoffs from big tech companies, but there is still significant demand for people with certain skills outside of those big companies and outside Silicon Valley. So startups in mid-sized towns are still eager to hire and often have small labor pools locally. We think engineering and STEM are two places where the people who have registered as being interested in these programs frequently have backgrounds. And then healthcare. In the U.S. There is unlimited demand to hire healthcare workers in unlicensed and licensed roles. The big challenge there is addressing those licensing concerns and finding immigration pathways appropriate for the unlicensed roles.

[00:08:29.17] 

So what about language? So a number of the sectors you mentioned, like for example, healthcare, actually require a lot of interaction and interfacing with clients. Is language skills an issue? When we're looking at refugee populations, we

[00:08:43.22] 

think it's critical for people to have the language skills that they need to succeed in the roles that they are hired for. Many individuals already report that they're proficient in English and often have worked professionally in English before. Others may not be there yet, but we provide free resources for them to continue to develop and to test their English. But once people are at that level, this provides another asset to an employer that they're hiring a bilingual or often a multilingual employee who's then better able to engage with people and to, you know, present the international competency skills that are so important in the workforce today.

[00:09:23.06] 

What's the motivation for companies? I mean, it seems like this would be potentially a little bit more complicated than just hiring someone through a standard immigration stream.

[00:09:32.19] 

It can be more complicated depending on the process. In the U.S. We're looking to hire through existing U.S. Employment based processes. But for employers, there's an advantage of accessing an untapped labor market, of hiring people who are willing to relocate to where they live. And of course, many companies do share excitement about the humanitarian opportunity that hiring

[00:09:56.20] 

displaced people represents what happens after someone moves. So, you know, I've done a lot of work in the refugee resettlement space specifically, and we know there's a lot of times when refugees are coming in through resettlement, they have a lot of needs in terms of trauma or accessing mental health services, or dealing with physical health issues. If you have someone who is arriving on an immigration program, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for the same services as resettled refugees. Are they going to be able to actually get the types of services and supports after they arrive that they would need?

[00:10:34.06] 

This is a very significant concern and something that we're thinking about actively with partners. Refugees who come with employment-based visas have one critical advantage over others, which is that they will have employer sponsored health care, which in the U.S. Is often how you access, you know, long term and high quality health care. So that's something that, that we think is really important and where we'll be helping each refugee family to assess whether the benefits offered will meet their family needs. And if there are then other resources that we can call upon so that there's other things that are also critical. You know, building in time for a family to land. You don't want to start a job the day after you arrive. You need time to acclimate to the community, ensure that any particular mental health or other health needs are addressed, and then also connecting to the community and ensuring there's a network of support. So those are all things that we're thinking through and ensuring will be present for everyone who relocates.

[00:11:36.21] 

I wanted to follow up on one specific point you mentioned. So connecting to the community, how do you actually do that? I mean, there's, you know, I can see how someone could connect, you know, maybe to social networks within their workplace, but that could be difficult for some. Someone who is new to a country, like you said, might still be working on language skills, those sorts of things. How do you actually facilitate that?

[00:12:00.09] 

Sure. So what we've found in other locations where TBB is matching employers and refugees is that setting people up with mentorship programs and community welcoming efforts. So basically just social connections of volunteers who are eager to just meet people and welcome them. This often looks quite a bit different than a full refugee sponsorship program in that people have an income, they have the resources that they need, and what they are looking for is just new friends, just a feeling that they belong in their community. So we've seen engagement from employers making sure that people get connected, as well as community groups providing that feeling of welcome and inclusion.

[00:12:47.21] 

You mentioned before that some of the gaps that you're seeing are in, particularly in, like, smaller communities or maybe places outside larger cities. Is that a concern in terms of both access to services or access to some of these social networks? Will it be more difficult for someone who is settling in a rural community or someplace outside a larger city that's used to actually dealing with immigration?

[00:13:11.13] 

Potentially, I think there's a huge range of experiences. TBB's programs in Canada have been very successful in placing skilled tradespeople in smaller and rural towns. And what we found is that often smaller communities are really deeply invested in newcomers and are easier places to feel connected and to get to know people. They also tend to offer lower cost of living, which can make it easier for someone who doesn't have a huge amount of savings to establish themselves and to, you know, move into things like homeownership over time. But of course, those experiences will vary dramatically based on the person who's relocating, the nature of the community, how engaged the employer is in connecting people. So I think there's a huge range of factors, and in many cases, I think what we'll see is smaller cities are going to provide a good balance between the cost of living and the other, you know, networks of people who were born outside the U.S. And a warm, welcoming environment.

[00:14:15.09] 

So I was looking at the Talent Beyond Boundaries website before we were talking, and I think it mentioned that about 700 people had moved through immigration programs so far as a result of what you all are doing. That's not tiny, but it's also not, it's kind of small in comparison to resettlement numbers. So UNHCR reported that in 2022, I think more than 58 refugees had gone through its resettlement programs. Is this scalable? You know, could we eventually see a world where the number of people moving on labor pathways is in the realm of where resettlement is?

[00:14:52.06] 

That's certainly the scale of our goals. So 2022 was really the first year that TDB was operating and doing job matching outside of COVID travel restrictions. So we're really, I think 700 is sort of the base number and we'll build from there. What we're seeing is more employers coming on and seeking to hire, more governments expressing interest, dramatically greater numbers of people seeking to register for opportunities in our database, the talent catalog, and then also more partners globally participating in the employer recruitment and job matching. In other words, TBB isn't the only entity doing this. And we're actively supporting more and more partners, refugee led and refugee serving organizations globally to engage in this work. So we certainly hope to see those numbers scale dramatically over the next five years.

[00:15:45.13] 

So when we're talking about scalability, of course one of the things that affects scalability is cost. And it seems like compared to a normal immigration program where you have employers who are paying recruitment fees to bring someone in, there might be some additional things built into a labor pathway for a refugee, like the skills mapping at the front end or managing the volunteers at the back end. That might be in addition to what you'd normally see in an immigration program. So do you see costs as being something that could be a barrier to scale and how would you see that those costs being accounted for within the program as it grows?

[00:16:25.14] 

So I think that costs are something that should be addressed as we scale. So employers in certain sectors are already used to paying significant recruitment fees, which TBB does not directly charge. We accept charitable donations from organizations that benefit from our services. And that's I think an increasing avenue for growing the program is for businesses to be supporting the cost as a beneficiary. I think in turn things like hiring in cohorts. So it is much more resource-intensive to hire one person than to hire 10 people on a per capita basis. So when we see employers committing to hire in large numbers, we'll then see extensive benefits that will help candidates move more quickly and also reduce the costs. Which means that things like supporting people in their English skills development or providing that volunteer support when people arrive shouldn't be a dramatically different cost than using a for-profit recruiter, if we assume that the employer is bearing 100% of the costs, which, you know, may or may not be the case as we grow in the long term.

[00:17:43.03] 

So given the resources involved, I mean, one of the critiques that might be made of complementary pathways is that it's not as hands off as just recruiting refugees through normal pathways, but we already have resettlement pathways that exist to help refugees and the most vulnerable. Do you see complementary pathways as they scale up the attention and sort of resources they need as being in competition with traditional resettlement?

[00:18:09.09] 

So to start from the perspective of "Are the people who are moving, is that detracting from the slots allocated to resettlement?" Which I know is not the full extent of your question, but to take that first, TBB's programs currently operate on employment based visa pathways. So they are not detracting from humanitarian programs or from resettlement. Now, there may be opportunities for pilot programs where we could develop small scale opportunities to test and to build infrastructure, but we have been very clear that in the long term, we view the opportunities for scale as being outside of the resettlement program and that any use of resettlement for labor mobility must be in addition to allocations that would be made without that program. Then in terms of kind of political capital or energy, I hope not. I think that there is great opportunity to see all of these as different streams that help different groups of people or that are best targeted to different populations of refugees to have access to opportunities to relocate or to find a way to resolve their situation of displacement. So in other words, some people, resettlement's gonna be the best solution for some people.

[00:19:25.24] 

They already have family members in a place like the U.S. or Canada, and what they need is help getting through that family based reunification program. Some people maybe could relocate based on studies through a student visa. And we think that labor mobility is one of those options. And given the situation with resettlement, as you mentioned, at a historic low of 58,000, it's important that we be exploring all of the tools that can help refugees relocate to safety.

[00:19:56.04] 

So we're coming up on the planning period for the Global Refugee Forum, which will be at the end of December. There's a lot of thought going into what some commitments might be that are made under that forum. It follows up, of course, on the commitments that were made under the Global Compact (on) Refugees in 2016, which included complementary pathways. And I'm wondering, you know, in TBB's role as part of one of the task forces that's moving forward, complementary pathways, what you see as the top one to two things that need to happen on labor mobility, specifically in the next year, and what's on what's the top of your wish list in terms of priorities.

[00:20:36.13] 

So in the U.S., I think what we'd love to see is U.S. Government engagement to address those specific obstacles that displaced people in particular face trying to access visas that would apply in the family based process and in the employment based process. Those are things, like I said, that the government can do without Congress, that they can, that they have authority to do. And we would love to see engagement there on a global level. I think seeing additional governments commit to this as an initiative that complements their resettlement and humanitarian commitment under international law to asylum. So seeing more governments join in, express interest and learn from governments that have established programs, like the Government of Canada that's leading the Global Task Force on Refugee Labor Mobility. That's I think what we're hoping to see over the next year and which we'll hopefully see also at a a summit that's happening in March to discuss global refugee labor mobility.

[00:21:37.03] 

Betsy, thank you so much for coming on. It's really been great speaking with you and hearing about talent beyond boundaries work.

[00:21:44.12] 

Thanks, Susan. If listeners are interested in learning more, our website is talentbeyondboundaries.org and I'm on Twitter @Betsylfisher. B E T S Y L F I S H E R thanks so much for having me.

[00:22:01.10] 

I think our conversation really demonstrated for me the potential of things like complementary pathways to think beyond silos and sort of find solutions that sort of stretch across portfolios and pull innovative ideas from other areas, which is something that we'll really need to think through in the coming years as the protection system globally is under more pressure. But also our systems aren't really built to operate in this way. And I think some of the barriers that Betsy mentioned, things like the ways in which passports can be a barrier or the types of qualifications that refugees need to demonstrate to move through immigration, normal immigration programs, really demonstrate that there's a need to shift our thinking to be a bit more flexible and creative. But that requires a lot of investment and political will over the next few years to make these shifts. And I know these questions of innovative solutions to global protection system in crisis and what it may take to implement them are something that occupy a lot of my time and that of colleagues here at MPI and MPI Europe. And we're really delighted to be partnering with the Robert Bosch Foundation in Germany on an initiative called Beyond Territorial Asylum:

[00:23:11.21] 

Making Protection Work in a Bordered World that's thinking through these big questions and offering solutions. If you'd like to learn more about that initiative, please visit migrationpolicy.org/protection thank you for tuning in to another episode of World of Migration. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. And for other MPI podcasts, including Climate Change, Changing Migration, and Moving Beyond Pandemic, check out our website at migrationpolicy.org/podcasts. This episode was produced by Yoseph Hamid, with assistance from Lisa Dixon and editorial input from Michelle Mittelstadt. Our theme music is Bright Idea by Geographer and my name is Susan Fratzke and my fellow World of Migration hosts and I will see you next time.