Moving Mountains: Climate Migration in High Altitudes

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CHAPTERS 

[00:03:06]: How climate variability is influencing migration patterns in mountain communities 

[00:05:39]: The role of remittances in supporting adaptation and resilience 

[00:06:37]: Migration’s mixed effects on household resilience before and after disasters 

[00:10:57]: Climate-related immobility and constraints on migration 

[00:13:23]: Planned relocation efforts and factors shaping their outcomes 

[00:16:18]: Rural depopulation trends and implications for mountain areas 

[00:19:02]: Policy responses to migration and climate change in mountain regions 

TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:03.11] 

Hello and welcome to Changing Climate, Changing Migration. This is a podcast from the Migration Policy Institute in which we interview top experts around the world to get the latest and the smartest insights on the linkages between climate change and human migration. I'm Julian Hattem, I'm your host and I'm the editor of the Migration Information Source. That's MPI's online magazine in which we break down some of the most interesting and relevant trends and policies affecting international migration worldwide and make sense of one of the world's most dynamic and oftentimes most confusing issues. You can find that online at migrationinformation.org. Mountains may not be the first places you think of to be impacted by climate change, but they should be up there. About one tenth of the world lives in mountain regions, mostly in rural areas. And. And as glaciers melt and rains fall in increasingly unpredictable patterns, roads and buildings are destroyed by landslides. Many people in mountainous areas may be forcibly displaced or may be more interested in migrating voluntarily for a new work and a new place to live. And for a variety of reasons, people in mountain areas face particular challenges that need special consideration to get a grip on what climate change means for people living in mountainous areas and whether it's forcing people to leave their homes.

[00:01:29.03] 

Today I'm speaking with Amina Maharjan. She is a migration specialist at the International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development in Nepal. Amina, thank you so much for your time. I'm so glad to have you here.

[00:01:41.09] 

Thank you, Julian. Good to be here.

[00:01:44.14] 

So often when people talk about climate change, some of the first hazards that come to mind are things like sea level rise or hurricanes, which typically affect low lying areas and places, places close to the ocean. What are the main climate impacts in mountainous areas which sometimes get overlooked?

[00:02:01.16] 

You know, if you look at the mountains itself, they also tell the stories of climate change impact because, you know, if you look, if you speak with people closer to mountains, they see that impact so visibly in terms of snow cover changes as well as the glaciers that has been retreating in front of their very eyes. So I think these are the. How do you call that? These are something that you cannot unsee. So these are the very visible, tangible impacts of the climate change. But not only that, even in the everyday life, everybody is actually facing those impacts because if you look at mountain livelihoods, these are all dependent on agriculture or forest products, you know, livestock, very closely related with the climatic conditions. So these are things that impact directly every day in the very livelihoods.

[00:02:55.22] 

And so I guess, are we seeing people respond to Some of those livelihood changes in particular by migrating or being displaced, I guess what sort of patterns are starting to emerge?

[00:03:06.05] 

So I think human mobility and migration, you have to look at a more broader perspective, not only climate. So in mountain mobility, migration has been part of life, particularly in high altitudes. If you look at the pastoral life, it's not possible to stay in 1 place 12 months based on the resources that they have. But in lower altitudes, where people are more sedentary, there, the migration has become more apparent. So but what climate change has done is really increase the uncertainty in their livelihoods as a result of which now you see more increasing people going outside the their villages or their homes for better livelihoods or even livelihood diversification. So climate change impacts has added that accelerator. But having said that, in the mountains, as I said, migration is very, very important. It's been part and parcel of their life. But the patterns, the durations, those have now shifted over time.

[00:04:05.23] 

So what kind of patterns are we seeing? Are people moving to cities or... Sorry, yeah, continue.

[00:04:11.00] 

Most of the migration are now towards cities. Because whatever said and done, city based, even if it is waste labor, these are not directly impacted by climate change. So directly, of course, when floods happen in cities, or not in the mountains, but more in the plains, heat waves, of course it impacts. Right. But other ways is base livelihoods are not so directly impacted. And that's one of the reasons people are moving more to the urban centers. Not necessarily major cities, but more urban centers. But again, not all of this migration can be tagged as because of climate change. Mostly it is economic and employment driven. But climate change has that accelerator. This is one of those driving forces. Now what you could also see an increasing trend is displacement. And this can be environmental stresses. And there you can see more and more climate induced disasters happening in the mountain regions. Last couple of years, now five, six years, we have seen this very complex kind of disasters, like one disaster causing another, you know, having that cascading impacts. And these are where you can see that the direct linked with people having to move out of their villages.

[00:05:23.19] 

You know, displacement, for instance, like the landslides. Once it destroys your land and house, what do you do? You just have to move. It might be short distance or to Kathmandu or other cities, but that's something we are seeing increasingly in the mountain regions.

[00:05:39.11] 

You mentioned that there is kind of a culture of migration or a habitual pattern of migration. I mean, Nepal in particular, I believe the remittances from abroad are a relatively large chunk of the economy. Is it the case that some of those remittances and the money earned by migration can also help prevent or help adapt to and mitigate the harsh impacts of landslides and prevent some of these disasters.

[00:06:04.09] 

You know, it the answer is not so clear. We like to see linear, you know, relations that often doesn't happen. But what we have seen, for instance in one of our own studies, not only in Nepal, but also in the mountains in India and Bangladesh and Pakistan, that remittances does help people to adapt. Now, adaptation can also be. In that study, what we found was people were actually investing in agriculture sector in order to reduce some of those climate change impacts. Right. For instance, if in mountainous region, rain fed agriculture is still very prominent. But if you can have an irrigation, then that, you know, rainfall fluctuations does not variability does not impact you so much. It still does, but not so much. So we found that people were actually still investing in agriculture and livestock sectors. Not so much on public or, you know, public goods. So there is that. And when we were doing, you know, consultations in the communities, we found other ways also people were using migration, for instance, when people are coming to the towns or even abroad, because from this region people do go for labor migration to Gulf countries.

[00:07:14.08] 

Then, you know, mobile becomes an important. It's not a luxury. It becomes a very important way of keeping contact with families. But using mobile, they were also aware of the weather forecast. So that's something people were using more and more. And that helped them in planning their advocacy Canada for let's say. So there are different ways it helps. But you mentioned about disasters. We found that during disaster, immediately after disaster, actually it reduces their resilience. Because when disasters happen in mountain areas, most of the places are not that accessible. And you know what disasters does it cut cuts off the access first and foremost, be it virtual or physical. And in that case you really have to depend on your own villages for rescue relief. Part of it. And this is where during 2015 earthquake it's not climate, but anyways a disaster. And this would be, you know, applicable in other climate induced hazards and disasters as well. You know, there were lesser hands to do that. So that time we realized that actually it reduces people's capacity to respond. But later and rebuilding and others again it was helpful having money is coming from outside.

[00:08:27.20] 

So there is a kind of mixed. And it's important to better understand what are the ways, you know, that migration can actually help adaptation and where are the ways that actually reduces, in which case what kind of support is required? That kind of discussion has not happened.

[00:08:44.17] 

But so, so when a disaster strikes, it seems like you're saying that there's kind of a downward spiral of how of a bit of ability to adapt and respond because the roads are damaged, the power lines, whatever are shut down and it makes it harder and harder to rebuild and get back together.

[00:09:01.24] 

Is that a fair characterization? Post disaster, first you have this rescue. So when things have collapsed you need people on the ground to rescue. So that's the phase where not having enough and able budget. Because migration is again very important. It's gendered. It's mostly men migrating and it's mostly young people migrate, not older people or younger children. Right. So not having that category of population impacts immediately after disaster, but after one month or two months when it's time for rebuilding, then remittances actually help because now you have cash in hand to do it. So you have this immediately after disaster. You can see that there's a negative impact. But post that then again is a positive. That's why I said there is nothing linear about these impacts. And this is a discussion we are having with, with our disaster management authority. How are we going to address, you know, these.

[00:10:00.06] 

That's... You're absolutely right. I want to tell a simple, clear, linear story, but as often it's. It's much more complicated than that. Right? Yeah, I mean, but I guess it's also. We also talk about migration and displacement as a thing that is always possible. Or that people whether if they want to migrate, that they can do. But I mean it is also the case that people either do not want to migrate because they have or they do not want to be displaced because they have deep ties to their land and their home. And also many people might not be able to. Right. Especially if you're talking about remote areas that are hard to reach and it's elderly people, people with physical disabilities or whatever the things. I mean are there cases where people are might were leaving either because of a disaster happening and they should go for safety or just because their livelihoods, their brain fed agriculture and things like this are no longer working and they should be leaving but they cannot either by choice or because of inability to...

[00:11:00.10] 

Yeah.

[00:11:00.21] 

Immobility. Is that a problem as well?

[00:11:03.02] 

Absolutely. Because when we talk about migration we forget about immobility. People who can't move. Right. And very rightly mentioned it could be voluntary or involuntary. Because often we feel and we say that people, people who can't move actually stay. But it can be also that people who can move might also still Stay. And these are stories that you often hear even in disaster cases, older people in particular, that place attachment, you know, attachment to the place where they have called home, spent decades. It's not an easy choice to leave that and go because of when disasters happen, often the tendency is, you know, if it is possible to stay there and rebuild, which again might not be the most, you know, from risk perspective, most positive thing to do. Because if the risks are higher, you know. Yeah, because if the risk are higher, then the plausible thing is actually to knock it to place that is most safer. Now, you know, these are. When you say displacement, there is an angle of not being voluntary. Displacement normally happens because you don't have a choice, so you just have to move. If your house is gone, I mean, it's gone.

[00:12:17.22] 

So you just need to move. Now, relocation is where you know that that choice comes. But again, the problem with relocation is conceptually, you know, it is, it is good taking place to a safer, you know, taking people to a safer place. But the problem there is how much of a say does the people who are being relocated have in this whole process? Because that would make a difference in terms of what kind of outcome relocation has. So, you know, migration in certain cases can be the only option to reduce risk. Right. And these are like high risk, disaster, very vulnerable places. But how you deal with that actually impacts the overall outcome for the, for the people. Are they being consulted? Are their well being being compromised or is it actually leading to the further better well being? So these are the things that needs to be considered even during disaster displacement and relocation plans.

[00:13:18.18] 

Are there examples of this kind of planned relocation that have either worked or not worked that you can speak to?

[00:13:27.15] 

In the mountain context, we don't have so many of those relocation, planned relocations happening. Some of that happened during 2015 earthquake disasters. Some of them actually work, some of them didn't work. Those houses are still lying empty. People said we didn't go and live there. So there are some examples of good planned relocation, but others not. And this is where I mean this better understand why it worked and in cases where it didn't work, why. So that really matters. And often when we like have not done any research per se, but I have interacted with people who had not gone to that new locations. And often they say that, you know, our field, everything is still in our own village. So you are simply shifting the house. So how does that work? You know, I'm not going to commute one hour every day to look after my field and then live In a house so far away. So that simply doesn't work. So those practical, everyday practicalities that often does not get, you know, considered. Probably when you are planning those relocations.

[00:14:31.20] 

You can't relocate everything. Even if you relocate, you know, the home you sell, the fields and the. Yeah. The farm. Everything is. And the road and the social networks as well. Everything is exactly left behind.

[00:14:42.17] 

Yeah, exactly. So this is something my colleagues in China, they were saying that, okay, we did the relocation, but how do you relocate livelihoods? So you took, you know, they were saying that. No, we took the... In one context from rural to more, you know, urban context. But people are still not happy. I said, like maybe in rural areas they were happier doing their agriculture. Now what are they doing? They were saying, we're trying to give them skills training, you know, to adapt to more, you know, urban livelihoods. But then for younger people. Yes, but for older people now learning a completely new skills, completely new livelihoods, it's difficult. Obviously people are going to struggle. So I think these are the things to consider if you really want to have a successful relocation plan.

[00:15:28.23] 

Yeah, I guess both with relocation, but also kind of more generally. What are the implications of this, of these, of these trends we're talking about? It sounds like we're saying that on the one hand, younger men in particular, because of climate and because of broader economic reasons, are looking to migrate to earn money either in cities or internationally in the Gulf elsewhere, leaving behind women, mothers, elderly people, elderly people, younger people. Does that mean that in the long run, I mean that that has problems for these rural communities that are just old people and children? Right. I guess. What are the long term implications of this migration, especially if those rural areas are increasingly vulnerable to drought and glacier runoff and landslides and other natural disasters and hazards?

[00:16:18.05] 

If the policies remain blind to this phenomenon, then what I see is rural populations, areas being empty of people, this deep oppression, something we have already seen happening in China and India already in the last decade and this decade we saw it in Nepal, I think 32 districts have reported negative annual growth rate, which means to say yearly they are losing population.

[00:16:44.09] 

Oh, wow, so people are leaving rural areas and not going back.

[00:16:48.06] 

Yeah, yeah. So that is already a train that we see and which would be unfortunate because, you know, mountain areas, as such, we don't have so much of land because that puts a lot of pressure on these urban areas and.

[00:17:01.21] 

Yeah, yeah. So then. Yeah. What are the conditions in cities then? If there's a huge influx of new people?

[00:17:06.09] 

Exactly. The cities then very slowly run out of its capacity to give services. And it's not like cities are climate proof. Right. It has its own.

[00:17:15.08] 

Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:16.06] 

It has its own risk. So this is where we are actually heading towards what we feel is at this moment. If we can actually look into this, this aspect of migration and start to integrate more into the overall development plans, then probably this trend does not need to continue at the rate that we are seeing now. Because this has huge implications in terms of what happened about the resources in the rural mountain areas. Because right now they are being abandoned and it has its own problems. Right. So this really needs a systems thinking on how to make most productive use of both the resources that you have, but also the labor force. Because how much can cities provide and the dependency only on remittances? I think that's not really a sustainable way of things, you know, sustainable way of developmental growth, whatever.

[00:18:16.04] 

I guess what is the government or NGOs development actors doing to address these concerns and what more or what else should be done?

[00:18:26.10] 

There is definitely concerns now more than let's say earlier. So I believe that there is more willingness to try to understand and start try to integrate this in the overall development plans, not only in adaptation. Right. It's again another thing to consider this adaptation and development, sustainable development is very linked in a way. The more sustainably developed an area is, the better their adaptive capacities in many contexts. So that's why I think we need to really talk about. Even if we are talking about climate and migration, that broader framework is very important. And even now there is no appetite to better understand and integrate. But I think how to do it is something still missing. And this is where more focus needs to be had. If I in the mountain, even in India and in Nepal now from even from political parties, there is lots a lot more interest in this. But internal migration, international migration, of course there are policies now there is more focus on return migration again post-COVID because so many people had to be return and then suddenly government was okay, so what do you do now? There is more focus on ret8rj migration as well.

[00:19:48.06] 

But internal migration so far still not has been addressed in a system systematic way. I don't think there are any policies per se on how to address that. And most of the time we don't even have a data on how many people are actually, you know, you are registered in one place. But actually how many people are residing, how many people are people are actually residing somewhere else that even that data is missing. So that discussions are very important. And in one of our new work. That's exactly what we are hoping to do. How do you bring this mobile population in the whole development discussions, you know that adaptation discussions because often what you see is an adaptation of the work. It becomes a background, people are moving for various reasons and that's it. So that is more, you know, considered as a challenge, something that needs to be stopped. Migration still from that lens, you know, this is a challenge, something that you need to stop everybody, that's the starting point. How do you stop? And often when I interact with policymakers, that's the implicitly or explicitly it comes how do you stop migration?

[00:20:56.03] 

And I'm like, is that really what you want to focus? Maybe we need to focus, you know, differently. How do you make rural live views more sustainable? How do you climate proof rural live views? Maybe that's the way to look. Because if you have sustainable livelihoods, if you have adaptive, resilient livelihoods, then maybe people would be happy staying back, you know. And it's not only when I say livelihoods really broad, it's not only about income because this is something that has stayed with me. This was actually in Uttarakhand, India. Women. I was just discussing with a group of women there. They said no, no, no, we are not going to stay. And I was like, why? But then like income, everything is. And they said that, you know, if you can't use this money to buy the services that you want, it's a piece of paper. So if I have to, you know, go to the nearest town for the smallest of health issues, why should I stay here? I would rather shift there. And that's my goal. So those basic. That's why I think that broader frame of sustainable development with access to basics, you know, education, health, those becomes very important.

[00:22:00.09] 

If that happens then of course I, I think this very rapid and chaotic urbanization, what we are seeing in the region can probably shift. Having said that, urbanization and urban growth is inevitable and cities will also have to start preparing for more people coming and the countries, I think we just have to plan that, you know, people are going to be attracted to more urban lifestyles. And instead of one big city that cannot deal with it anymore, can we start thinking of more planned urbanization at national level? You know, where could those places be and really have that climate eye when you are thinking of urban growth? Because you don't want to set up an urban area in a very climate risk or vulnerable areas. Right. So those are the things to consider, I believe.

[00:22:53.18] 

So urban areas and rural areas, making sure that Both kind of are run sustainably. The people can live in a city, in the countryside, in the mountains, in a sustainable way without.

[00:23:03.14] 

And we don't need to think only rural, urban, but also connections. Okay, maybe some of them will go to urban areas to work, but they might still want to have that rural base. So why is it so necessary to think that you need to have only one base, that trans locality, you know, multiple bases. And if, you know, if that's how it works and people are happy with it, why not? And this is where I keep saying everywhere that we need to learn from the mountains because the mountain people actually had that multi local livelihoods, successful multilocal livelihoods for decades if not centuries. Right? So maybe that's something to really learn from high mountains. How do you do that?

[00:23:46.16] 

That's great. Learn from the mountains. I love that. Okay, we're basically out of time, but that is a lovely note to end on. This was a super interesting conversation. Amina, thank you so much for sharing your time, for sharing your thoughts. This was very fascinating.

[00:24:00.05] 

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this opportunity and I hope your listeners are also enjoying our conversation. I definitely enjoyed sharing mountain insights. Thank you Julian.

[00:24:10.22] 

Thank you. Amina Maharjan is the Senior Specialist Livelihoods and Migration at the International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development in Kathmandu, Nepal. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Changing Climate, Changing Migration. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to catch all of our new episodes fresh when they come out. We are on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the other major podcasts platforms. If you like this episode with Amina Maharjan, I bet you'll appreciate other conversations focusing on climate and migration in places like the Pacific Islands and South Asia and Central America. All of those and many more conversations are in our archives online at migrationpolicy.org/podcasts. And check out the special collection of Migration Information Source articles on climate migration at migrationpolicy.org/climate.

[00:25:06.15] 

While you're there, you should subscribe to the Migration Information Source newsletter. It's absolutely free, comes out twice a month and offers cutting edge insights and analysis about migration worldwide. It's more in depth than the mainstream news, but we promise you won't need a graduate degree to understand it. You can email me directly at [email protected]. I'm always on the lookout for feedback and and I welcome suggestions for new episodes. This episode was produced by Daniella Espacio with assistance from Lisa Dixon and Michelle Mittelstadt. Our theme music is Touch by Patrick Patrikios. I'm Julian Hattem. Thank you again.