Meeting Labour Skill Needs While Expanding Refugee Protection

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[00:00:00.11] - Kate Hooper

Hello, my name is Kate Hooper, and I'm a Senior Policy Analyst with the Migration Policy Institute. I am very excited to welcome you to today's briefing on meeting labour skill needs while expanding refugee protection. I'm joined by 3 great speakers on this call: Bassel Ramli, who is co-founder and director of Global Initiatives at Jumpstart Refugee Talent, Marius Tollenaere, who's a partner with Fragomen's office in Germany, and my colleague Belén Zanzuchi, who is a policy analyst with MPI Europe. As the competition for talent heats up, countries are looking to international recruitment to help fill some of these shortages. Yet there are worrying signs that qualified candidates and employers alike are struggling to access these labour pathways. Poorly designed visas may require excessive documentation that's hard to track down or expensive to obtain. Visa applicants may have to travel long distances for repeat appointments. Visa appointments themselves may be hard to come by. And processing times can be long and unpredictable, making it hard to estimate if or when someone with a job offer can actually relocate. And these challenges are often compounded for refugees due to the circumstances of their displacement. Refugees can struggle to meet certain requirements.

They may not have a passport, for example, yet immigration authorities might not think to accept other types of travel documents, or they may not be able to extensively document their past work experience and training. Whether because of lost documents or contacts, or due to gaps in their career as they relocated and potentially faced bars on working in their host country. Today's conversation will drill down on why refugees and other international candidates can struggle to access work visas that they're otherwise totally qualified for, and what steps governments can take to improve accessibility, and in doing so, help fill some of their pressing labour shortages. As part of this discussion, we're really excited to launch a new tool. This allows you to check how accessible different work visas are and areas for potential improvement, which we developed under the AMIF-funded STEP project. I'm going to hand the floor over to my colleague Belén now, who will present this tool, and then we'll open up to a panel discussion.

[00:02:10.01] - Belén Zanzuchi

Thank you, Kate. I hope everyone can hear me loud and clear. So perhaps, yes, we're very excited to see the framework and the tool finally out. Perhaps a bit of context, and as Kate was mentioning, so over the past years, we've seen several efforts to try and make labour pathways work for refugees, and for good reasons, because we've seen displacement and protection needs continue to grow while resettlement places and commitments have been insufficient, and even in the last year, declining. And on the other hand, we also see that many countries continue to face labour shortages due to demographic changes, skills mismatches, and so on. On paper, connecting like these two realities makes a lot of sense because it's a win for refugees to access safe pathways to protection and to use their skills and talents for destination countries also in assessing, in addressing these shortages, and also for host countries in releasing some of the pressure that they often face. But when we look at the programs that have been implemented over the past years in Australia, United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland, Belgium, and so on, We have seen that they still continue to struggle to reach scale, and this is not just because of one issue.

We see that there are several challenges linked to, for example, limited employer engagement in some cases, shifts in political support and public attitudes, concerns around housing availability, funding, and so on and so forth. But one common obstacle that keeps surfacing across contexts and in all these pilots relates to refugees' access to existing work-related visas. So what we see is that at the end of the day, these visas have worked as a gatekeeper, essentially. So if a qualified refugee cannot meet the standard visa requirements, due to specific— to having, for example, valid passport or can't retrieve original study documents or cannot travel to the embassy, they are excluded from the start. And this is also like these inefficient visa frameworks and procedures are also harming, let's say, employee engagement because it also reduces incentives to engage. Because what we see is that employers need clarity on results and timelines. If those are not there, then participation drops also. So what we see is that in many cases these programs have been reliant on specific and targeted flexibilities for refugees and all bespoke initiatives. These bespoke initiatives are great, but also are very time-consuming and resource-intensive. So what, what it means is that also like destination countries have been missing.

So on the opportunities to tap into this talent. So with all this in mind and with also ongoing conversations around visa reforms, around the recent EU visa strategy having been launched recently, also with the UK, for example, having conversations around designing specific refugee and visa for refugee talents. We design and we decided to produce this framework launched today as part of the STEP project in which we're working with Spain, Italy, and Ireland. And over the past months, we've spoken with STEP partners, but also with UNHCR, IOM, legal experts, refugee-led organisations, civil society, and so on to really understand where refugees have or are encountering barriers to access work visa frameworks and what are some of the flexibilities that have worked to facilitate access to these issues. So the idea is quite simple. If countries want to basically use labour mobility to serve both economic and protection objectives, the idea is that they need to assess and understand whether their existing visa frameworks are actually open for people in need of protection, for refugees specifically. So with our publication, what we are trying to do is to assist that process, basically operationalising all the knowledge that already exists from the many different pilots in terms of like what specific barriers refugees face at which phases and so on, and trying to also propose alternatives for flexibilities.

So the release today basically has like two components. One is a framework in which we focus on three pillars that we've seen as determinants for access, for refugee access to visas. One is linked to basically everything that has to do with the eligibility criteria that a visa, a specific visa has in terms of qualification requirements, age preference, basically like which sectors or occupations are targeted with that visa, type of status provided for the applicant, and also access to family reunification and so on. Because we see that some visas are definitely more restrictive than others, than others, or at least like profiling or targeting specific profile of refugees. So this definitely limits like who can access. A second pillar is linked to the requirements and documentations that are asked as part of that visa application. So in terms of like what travel documentation, for example, is accepted, if it's only a valid passport, that can be quite problematic for refugees. But if there are other alternatives, then that means that that visa framework might be more open. Then also requirements linked to saving and bank accounts, credential recognition and equivalency, which also are a big barrier, language requirements, work experience, and so on.

And then a third pillar, really trying to understand how processing of visas and how the procedures linked to them can also shape and either open or limit refugee accessibility. So in terms of, for example, where they can file an application, if they need to travel in person to the embassy, if they can start the process online. And whether this can be done, for example, in different language than the language of the destination countries, cost and the timelines and so on. So we basically on top of this framework, what we did was to produce a very practical scorecard also that everyone can download and use on their own to test, essentially like test and understand like how accessible a visa, a specific visa is for refugees. So in the scorecard, you see that we have like the pillars, the different pillars and subcategories like per pillar. And based on the considerations that I just mentioned, we have questions and we have also predetermined answers basically organised from least accessible to more accessible. The idea is that you click on the one option that corresponds to that specific visa that you're trying to assess. And for some cases, you may have pop-up text showing up if you, for example, mark a particularly challenging answer, or if we want to flag like something important on something like actually providing access or facilitate access to refugees.

So you have then like scores, as you say, and we're using a traffic light system for each subcategory and then for the overall score. And these are basically color-coded from orange for those visas or those specific categories, needed significant, significant work to improve accessibility, to yellow for the ones like needing some, but we need not so much. And then green for those categories that are a bit more accessible, at least like to refugees and perhaps not, do not represent like hard barriers. And then we also have a few questions that are kind of like the also big gatekeepers for these visas, for example, linked to travel documentation linked also to whether there's a proof, a background check, for example, from the country of origin required. So if you mark these options as required, this means that this is a big— often a big barrier for refugees and might leave most outside the possibility of accessing these visas. So let me perhaps show you and give you a quick peek into how this scorecard works. We have tested it with different visas based on available and publicly available information. In this case, I'm going to focus on the Spanish temporary work and resident permits as an employee, or trabajo por cuenta ajena, basically in Spanish.

So in the next slide, I'm going to just fill this in for 3 categories, starting with the general visa eligibility criteria. So essentially, in trying to understand with Visa, this visa, we see that it has like no minimum level of formal qualification specified. So mark for this. We also see that this visa is essentially open to all nationalities. We see that there is no age limit or preference specified. We also see that it's not limited to specific sectors, that the occupation doesn't need to appear on the shortage occupation list, and that it's not restricted to regulated professions and that there are no caps. So overall, we see that there are no major barriers, so as to say, on this very specific subcategory. If we We then move to the visa and work conditions for the main applicant. We see, for example, that the visa and related work permit provide temporary status to the applicant, but with pathway to more permanent residency. We see that the application doesn't ask about intention to return to their departure or home country, which can be otherwise problematic for refugees. We see that there are also some protections against refoulement in terms of like possibility to access asylum applications, but there are some more missing.

We also see that the related work permit is for 1 year with possibility to renew for more years and to apply for residence afterwards. We see that the associated work permit also is linked to a specific employer, occupation, and province also. But applicants have access, the possibility to access social security system, which grants them access to public healthcare and so on. So overall, we see that there are some room for improvement. And with the last category, so for travel documents, we see that the visa requires valid passport. And as I mentioned, this is a big barrier for most refugees if there are no other alternative documentations that can be presented to access a visa. And we also see that proof of legal residence in the country of departure is, is required also, which can be challenging for refugees. So we get like this pop-up text on the signs. So the idea is that if you do this for the visas that you're interested in and you repeat this, and also like the tool is most useful when you have like specific, for example, sector or role in mind and specific departure destination, departure country is also like most accurate, I would say.

But basically, if you do this like for different visas within the same countries or even for different visas within different countries, you can use this as pretty much an assessment tool and as a, to come up with a to-do list of specific reforms that you could implement if you were to make these visas more accessible. So for example, you can see on screen, we have taken the example of the Spanish visa that I was just talking about, and then the German Chancenkarte, which is actually a job search visa, and then the United Kingdom skilled worker visa. And we see that overall, the eligibility criteria is, for example, quite open for all these three visas. But the Chancenkarte, for example, what it has is that it, because it's a point-based system, if you're younger, you get more points. So in some ways, giving preferential treatment to that group. And then for the United Kingdom skilled worker visa, we see that high-skilled workers are targeted with this specific visa. We also see that the three visas have some issues or insufficient protection against like grateful month in terms of, for example, providing a grace period like to search for another job in case applicants or workers lose their job for which they enter the country.

And we also see like some issues and possibility for improvement for the 3 visas around provisions for family unity and reunification. So if we do this again, like for the second pillar, we see that, for example, only valid passport is accepted for the specific Spanish and German visa being considered in this case, which again is a hard barrier for most refugees, whereas, for example, in the UK, there are a range of travel documents are accepted. And when we, if for example, we go to the last example in terms of like the conditions associated with the specific job offer, we see, for example, that the United Kingdom, there are some constraints in terms of high salary threshold being required for application to a visa, which de facto can also make accessibility more limited. And then finally, just like to give you also a glance of the, of the third pillar. If we, if we basically analyse in terms of like the processing of the visas and the procedures and how it works, we see some issues around the timeline, processing timelines with the Spanish and German visa that we assess in this example because there are very long timelines.

And as I mentioned, this definitely can limit employer engagement and can be problematic also for refugees, especially when they need, for example, exit permits from the departure country, which might expire in that process. Whereas, for example, with this specific UK visa, we see that there is possibility for priority processing option, which definitely has speeded up the process. Yes. So I think the idea is that you can use this tool to assess what is needed or what's— how specific visas like fare and also like come up with a specific like to-do list. And you can also like go to our framework to see specific examples about what are the features, or refugee-friendly features as we call them, that to make these visas more accessible. I'll leave it there.

[00:16:22.07] - Kate Hooper

Thanks so much, Belén, for walking us through this tool. That was a really helpful presentation. For everyone on this call, we have a link to the report and the accompanying scorecard in our chat, and it's also available on our website as well. So I wanted to turn the floor over to Bassel. I, I know that you've worked on these issues for a number of years, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about your experiences and perspectives on what makes existing work visas inaccessible for refugees and how this can tie back to displacement circumstances. Love to hear your perspectives on this from your work in Canada and other settings.

[00:16:59.22] - Bassel Ramli

Absolutely. And thank you also for having me, and thank you, Belén, for the presentation. I went a little bit through the tool, and I think it's a great resource, not just for a policy crowd, but also for us as practitioners. It's going to be very important. And so good morning, good afternoon everybody, my name is Bassel Ramli. I am with JumpStart Refugee Talent and we are a refugee-led organisation and also a delivering NGO that helped really inform the design of Canada's Economic Mobility Pathways Pilot from its inception. And because we're refugee-led, these barriers really are not only issues that we've seen as practitioners, but they're barriers that we've experienced personally through our own journeys, through our own communities and families. And so from our experience, really the biggest issues we've seen is not just— it's not a willingness, it's not a lack of talent when it comes to scaling or even launching in the first place these pathways, but it's usability. So many labour migration pathways are built around assumptions that do not hold in displacement context. The application can access, or, you know, usually we assume that the applicant can access valid passport, complete in-person requirement easily, navigate long uncertain timelines, and produce every document in the standard form.

And so when those assumptions break, a pathway may exist really more on paper, but it becomes very difficult to use in practice. And while working through EMPP and seeing how it has evolved over the years, there are definitely— which is Canada's pilot on labour mobility again— there are many lessons that we've learned over time. And one of those is really that access and integrity can reinforce each other. This is where sometimes we have to look at alternative method. For instance, access to valid passport or travel documents, where many displaced people cannot safely renew or obtain passports even when they're fully qualified to have a real employer ready to hire them. So if a system treats them as a hard stop, it excludes strong candidates for reasons that have little to do with their ability to succeed. And so in Canada, you know, the IRCC, Immigration, Refugee and Citizenship Canada, accepted a single journey travel document in cases where such passport was not available. And also, it really is important when we think of this that we think about engaging practitioners in the design of these pathways. For example, another document that was required is a proof of displacement, an RSD of some sort, and a lot of candidates, a lot of refugees don't have it.

And when we conveyed that, that we're unable to help hundreds of candidates access this, IRCC launched a trusted partner model, trained a few organisations organisations that can now issue a proof of status documentation in lieu of this RSD, something that really helped scale EMPP in meaningful ways. And then the second area really is around employers and where predictability becomes essential. So predictability is not only about clear rules and consistent decision, but it's also about processing timelines that are workable and predictable for real hiring needs. So employers hire against actual vacancies, budgets, and operational timelines. And if a process is too slow or simply too uncertain, many employers cannot use the pathways, might not come back again to use it, and even if they're motivated to hire. So when we talk about accessibility, we should talk about timelines that align with labour market realities. And another area that we really think is valuable to consider would be the application process is part of the pathway design. So in practice, much of the work happens in the operational layer, helping people navigate documentation gap, credentialing issues, testing requirement, travel logistics, and shifting employer expectation. And so that operational reality is not designed from the beginning.

Government often end up relying on patchwork solutions after launch. And so here we want to think also about things like What are we asking employers and candidates to do? Maybe access— expecting them to have access to in-person language testing might be a bit challenging for many that live in smaller communities or in countries that might not have these testing centres or biometric centres or embassy or consulate. So thinking about what those alternative methods might be is important. And so really, you know, When we think about it, we do think about— to summarise it a little bit more. So really it's around document flexibility by design. It's around operational flexibility, reducing those unnecessary in-person bottlenecks and where possible, allowing more accessible ways to complete steps like language testing. There are many excellent models right now and platforms and tools some countries already have implemented where people can conduct these remotely, whether they're able to exit at home or through NGOs and partners on the ground. And then also thirdly, really the dedicated and trained processing capacity, because consistency, responsiveness, and predictability timelines matter enormously for employer trust. And again, we'll reinforce it, which is early practitioner engagement and supported by structured assessment tools.

I say this because right now there is this scorecard that I think should be part of the toolkit that that governments use. And this really helps to ensure from the beginning that these pathway designs reflect the operational reality and require less adjustment after launch. And so finally, what I'll say is if labour pathways are going to function as meaningful complementary pathways, usability has to be policy objective. That means designing not only for legal eligibility, but for real conditions under which displaced people apply and employer hire. Including, you know, family reunification. For candidates, a pathway is not realistically always accessible if it requires choosing between job opportunities and a family separation, especially that they are in precarious situation where that family could be at risk of being deported, sent back to their country of origin. And so, you know, many other lessons, but I think these are some of the main ones that we've learned through our experience with Canada and working on EMPP. And thank you for having me.

[00:23:56.16] - Kate Hooper

Thank you so much, Bassel. I'm really struck by the rich details you've been able to provide on sort of what these visas look like in practice versus on paper and where these issues arise, and also how many of these fixes around accessibility also cohere with efforts to modernise and make these visas more efficient. You can work towards one while also achieving much greater accessibility at the same time. So thank you. I want to turn the floor over to Marius next to share perspectives from Germany. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, from your work in Germany, sort of what are the main challenges that refugees and other international candidates can face when they're applying for work visas? And sort of in your, in your view, sort of what workarounds or reforms might be needed as a result?

[00:24:43.00] - Marius Tollenaere

Many thanks, Kate. Thank you very much for the invitation. Thank you very much for having me. My name is Marius Tollenaere. I'm a partner with Fragomen in Frankfurt. Fragomen is strongly engaged when it comes to refugee labour mobility topics. We have a long-standing cooperation with Talent Beyond Boundaries, an organisation which also supports complementary pathways and holds a talent pool of refugees looking for opportunities in destination countries. I personally have worked quite a lot, again alongside Talent Beyond Borders, in Germany over the last couple of years to speak on the topic of complementary pathways for refugees to the German government. It's a couple of years now that we have started this discussion, and I'm quite happy to say that we have usually been received by open ears and a willingness to discuss and also cooperate. And yeah, we actually do have a standing working group which consists of non-governmental and governmental stakeholders regularly convening to discuss roadblocks, potential roadblocks, ways forward. When we look at the German system as an example, we have just also seen it from Belén on the example of the Chancenkarte, which is a job search permit type. I think we look overall at the landscape, an immigration landscape which is quite open-ish, one can say, on paper, especially for highly skilled visa types.

The requirements are pretty open. It's a bit of a different story for the mid-skilled sector because Germany maintains a quite strict and difficult to operate system of degree recognition. It's not really an immigration requirement, but it is, because if you don't have a recognised degree in a specific regulated profession, you will not obtain the visa. So this is one element which is always quite difficult to handle. And I think I'm very much listening to Bassel, what you were saying. The practicability is extremely important. So if I had a wish, I probably wouldn't go for yet another immigration category, I would go for authorities and, and immigration and public stakeholders in the chain, maybe in an embassy, maybe a local immigration office, to be aware of that very special category of potential applicants. And I would much rather have everyone aligned there on potential roadblocks and potential extraordinary situations than having another overall legal situation.

Because what we can see, it breaks down to the very particular question of does everyone in the chain of an immigration process is aware of potential special situations only applying to that very population. And I think you really have to break it down. Bassel, you mentioned it as well. You really have to break it down step by step. Is the local visa processing centre which the embassy abroad may have, may be using to go through through applications as a first stage of the process? Are they aware that there may be special applicants coming with some documents missing, with a special situation overall? Is the security guard in front of the embassy aware that someone may come with papers which may look a bit difficult or different? Sorry. And these, these questions I think are extremely important In Germany, there's some other elements which could become roadblocks. The immigration system, when it comes to the first entry, it's a federal matter, but as soon as you are in the country, it becomes a county-level matter to deal with the application. So if we go for having some, um, um, yeah, favourable rules and some roadblocks identified, which for— and or solutions identified for some sort of, for some roadblocks on the federal first entry level. What is about the local level? Will the local immigration office follow the decision of the federal level in the first entry situation? If not, we may only postpone a quite large problem into an in-country situation where a renewal of a permit suddenly could be difficult based on, again, the maybe somewhat special document situation.

Or of course, we have talked about proof of identity. It's possible in law that you can, um, that the passport requirement can be waived. It's very hard in practice. Um, and these are things, just a couple of examples where we can see that there are some issues in the, in the overall making of the system, no matter how open it is or close it is on paper. But these very practical things, I think, are the most important bits to address. It is also, in particular, when you look at Germany as a country which doesn't have English as a first language, of course, it's also a question, isn't there a mandate for the government to make sure that language capabilities can be obtained in the transit country or the country of current residence of any applicant population. I think this is something particularly important, again, not so much for the immigration process because it's largely without language requirements, but if it goes to the question of, again, degree recognition, many times a language requirement is upheld there. So how What role can the government play in the future to maybe support vulnerable populations of potential applicants with upfront language training and overall preparation?

Certainly not only a role for the government, as many NGOs and organisations— Imagine Foundation is just one from Berlin— very active in this field, but certainly a question also if if this cannot be somewhat more pushed to make sure there is an opportunity to obtain a job offer in the first place. So I'd say when it comes to the refugee population and a potential larger role of labour pathways, if we could decide and focus on fiddling with those very details, um, and make sure the government, um, can ensure that no matter where the chain, um, a person has to go and has a touchpoint with, um, a civil servant and an authority, um, that in all of these steps awareness is made and generated to make sure the, the specifics of these, um, of this population can be respected. I think this would be the most important bit. Um, everything else I think can fall in place. Um, there's, there's even now growing exceptions for, um, skilled labour, um, core skilled labour visas. There's a new visa called experience-based or experience pillar, it's called. Of course, there again, many times this is something where at least some document of qualification will be required.

But other than the original skilled visa categories, which, which require very heavy documentation, this new experience-based pillar gives opportunity to have a degree recognition process run within Germany, but not based on the requirements of the German educational system, but based on the requirements of the country of origin. So there's some— slowly things are moving in when it comes to this strict degree requirements, and we'll see how these develop to even better pathways for, for refugees. I'll leave it here. I think we want to open and have as much time as possible for questions.

[00:34:00.08] - Kate Hooper

So thank you so much, Marius. It's really helpful to kind of get a sense of the situation on the ground in Germany. And I think he spoke very eloquently about how we, we're talking about visas today, but of course, you know, there are lots of other elements also come into play with things like access to work permits, um, which we didn't really get to touch on in this scorecard, as well as of course things like credential recognition that can also really important part of the picture for skilled workers looking to get jobs in regulated professions as well. We are mindful of time, so I want to open up to a Q&A section. So you'll see at the bottom of your screens there is Q&A button. We've already got some questions coming in there, but please do type any questions into the Q&A and we'll try to get to as many as we can. One question that I did want to start with, and perhaps This could be to Bassel and to Marius as well. We talked a lot about destination country settings, but of course there are factors in countries of departure as well that can also complicate access to visas.

[[FOR THE Q&A PORTION OF THE TRANSCRIPT, SPEAKERS ARE NOT IDENTIFIED BY NAME. PLEASE SEE THE RECORDING TO IDENTIFY SPEAKERS.]]

[00:35:04.23] - Speaker 1

Would it be possible to hear from you guys about, you know, how these policy settings might potentially shape refugee access to labour pathways and what fixes could be explored? Things like requiring an exit permit or other potential barriers as well. Perhaps we could start with Bassel.

[00:35:20.24] - Speaker 3

Yeah, thank you for that. So I would say that in addition to obviously the destination ones, that we have to look at a few things. So the exit controls and permits. So formal exit permits, restriction on certain nationalities, men of conscription age, or people without recognised status sometimes could be really an issue. And that is something that really needs to be considered. And then there are the documentation bottlenecks. Bottlenecks. So the, that goes back to like the inability to renew the passport or to really obtain civil documentation or access some of those state services in those host countries being probably another issue. And when it comes to even travel within the country itself, people in remote areas or with restricted movement may not be able to reach some of those embassies there or biometric And then there is, of course, the safety and legal status is another issue that we've seen in some context where people do fear arrest, detention, and that again adds additional barriers sometimes for those in-person concerns. And the third country may be around like consular requirements. So when applicants must be neighbouring country for biometric or visa issuance, the transit visa and cost logistics become a major barrier.

[00:36:57.23] - Speaker 3

So for us, that's why, like, some of the important things would be to reduce some of those in-person checkpoints. It's also about looking at alternative locations and mobile capacity. And just as importantly would be around the flexible document approach. That would be really important. And then the partnership and really to manage cross-border logistics. But yeah, I mean, from, you know, some of those barriers, I would imagine our experience has largely been on the destination side working with it, but that's what we've seen. Some of the partners that have worked on the ground supporting those candidates like RefugePoint and Talent Beyond Boundaries, of course, working closely with them. But, you know, from when we look at it from our own destination context, I think it's about just reducing some of those requirements that would be considered to be major barriers in those those, you know, source countries.

[00:37:57.24] - Speaker 1

Thank you, Bassel. Marius, did you want to jump in on, on any of these points?

[00:38:03.15] - Speaker 4

Just taking one point, um, ability to apply from everywhere. Um, I would take this not only for refugees but for everyone. Um, the traditional thing, you, you need to apply from your country of origin or from the country of official residence. Let's drop that. Um, if someone has the right documentation, even let's have them apply from anywhere. That would make things much easier. Second thing, I already alluded to it, um, embassies are no longer only embassies. They have so many private providers in front of them. If, if you want to facilitate anything, you may— we must make sure that these private visa providers, application centres, and so on are duly briefed and fully made aware. I mean, I would already take that they are usually able to do the regular stuff, which is usually the case, but not 100%. Um, so So this would be something which for sure would make things easier.

[00:39:00.10] - Speaker 1

Belén, we've had a couple of questions in the Q&A about what protections need to be in place for refugees using these pathways. So both the protections against non-refoulement, which you mentioned in your presentation, but also kind of concerns about what labour protections need to be in place. Would you be able to speak a little bit to how, how to address this challenge?

[00:39:20.16] - Speaker 2

Yes, I think in terms of provisions for non-refundable amount, we've seen like, for example, those frameworks that have like more flexibility around the possibility to look for another job, for example, if the applicant like is fired or wants to change job or so on, like these facilitated like visa transitions definitely help. And then we've seen in some cases there are concerns around like the the applicant being returned to the destination country, to the departure country, sorry. And in cases where, for example, the refugee status is maintained even after traveling with work visa, that has proved very important basically for protection because they don't lose their refugee status by accessing this visa. And there are also cases in which, for example, agreements with departure countries have been made to make sure that if the person leaves, they can also return and will not be sent to the origin country. And I think these issues are also important when, for example, there is no, like, at least immediate access to family unity or family reunification. So the possibility also to see family at departure, these activities and these provisions can be very important as well.

[00:40:35.16] - Speaker 1

Thank you, Belén. And sorry to ask a numbers question to the panellists, but we've had a couple of questions about the numbers of people moving through refugee labour pathways. And I was wondering if off the top of your head you could speak to any of the numbers of people moving through different programs. So perhaps Bassel could speak about the Canadian context and Belén, if you happen to have any of these numbers off the top of your head, just to give a sense of scale.

[00:41:03.02] - Speaker 3

So yeah, maybe I can go around the Economic Mobility Pathways pilot in Canada. So to date, it's a little over 1,000. You know, we don't get the updates month to month, but there is right now a major backlog that the government is going through. Where there is 4,500 applications in place for EMPP. So that's really principal applicants and their families. And that really added so much to the processing timeline. We started with 6 months. It went now to over a year. So we'll see how many will be hopefully being admitted throughout 2026. But yeah, to date, it's a little over 1,000.

[00:41:45.08] - Speaker 2

And I think those that I remember on top of my mind, but yes, like maybe We take them with a pinch of salt in case they are not accurate. But I think for the UK visa, especially for healthcare workers, it's about like 500 people that have benefited from these schemes. But then we have like much smaller numbers, for example, from our STEP partners. For Italy, I think about 20 people or so have moved under the pilot program, but many more expected also like to move this coming year. In Ireland, also about like 5 to 10 people have been able to access this pathway so far. In Belgium also, there were like some, at least like 12 or so applicants that have arrived with their families. So yeah, in many cases, as mentioned initially, I think the numbers remain small. And one of the issues is that because they're so demanding in helping applicants navigating all these, all these requirements and making sure that they can access the visas, that it makes it harder to, to scale.

[00:42:53.10] - Speaker 1

Thank you, that's very helpful. We've had a couple of questions about the role of technology to potentially alleviate some of the barriers that we've been discussing on today's call. So whether that could be, you know, matching platforms and things to sort of alleviate the actual connection between employers and refugees, or whether that's looking at things like digital wallets and digital IDs to get around some of the documentation requirements. I was wondering if any of you wanted to comment on that, you know, seeing applications in your national context or where you've seen some promising practices emerge elsewhere.

[00:43:25.04] - Speaker 4

I'm happy to attempt the first answer. I think, yes, of course, technology can help there. One element I would like to point out, I think it's going to be crucial for refugee labour mobility that individual refugees or certain talent pools match up with existing mechanisms of the recruitment industry of the very destination country. I think it will be quickly too much for an individual refugee or an individual employer or, let's say, an organisation or NGO to be able to deliver the full range of services required and available to employers, to really bring together this entire value chain from identifying a talent to a training process to a matching process and then move process into the country. So I think the answer is yes, and I think many recruitment agencies, larger companies do it themselves as well. Do apply, yeah, modern technology in any way to make this matching process easier and also the verification process. But I think it's very important to make sure especially these vulnerable populations are soundly bound to existing market infrastructures, let's say. And I think very importantly as well, hopefully digital identity and digital recognition of issuers of certificates and certificates can play a huge role in the future, making it much easier, hopefully, for refugees to still kind of travel with their documents.

[00:45:29.20] - Speaker 4

Look at Ukraine. They have a formidable system of e-government and people are This has been helpful for people as well from Ukraine, all over Europe, to make sure their identity and qualifications could be taken into account.

[00:45:51.08] - Speaker 2

I think perhaps to add quickly, the, the EU Visa strategy has been also launched recently, and there is a push in there to try to digitalise some of the procedures. And I think this would be again, like, great in trying to make sure that there are lower barriers for refugees in accessing, yeah, like, for example, starting like the application procedure, like online, in terms of having to go in person to the embassy, whereas my colleagues mentioned it can be sometimes like tricky, or they might have like reduced mobility in the departure country. So pushing for digitalisation as much as possible, as long as it's safe, of course. And that makes a lot of sense in terms of of like matching platforms. There's, I'm sure you know, the EU Talent Pool is also under discussion. And I think it's important also that in this Talent Pool, when applicants can like enter their profiles and register interest, it will be important that there is a possibility to also upload alternative documentation rather than a valid passport also for to make sure that they are not excluded from these matching initiatives that will be put in place in the coming years.

[00:47:01.22] - Speaker 3

Yeah, and I do completely agree. So, you know, the upsides are very clear of your missing documents and like much easier remote verification. And, you know, and also at the same time that we want to keep in mind that this is not always solving the problem or the underlying, let's say, the underlying credentialing issues. If it's still not accepted by a visa authority, it doesn't matter where, you know, if it's digitised or not. And also, of course, as we're exploring this more, it's always going to be very important, as Belén mentioned, to just keep an eye out for or certain risks that are associated with it, including, you know, some risks around exclusion. Like if this becomes the only method that is accepted, what happens to applicants that lack smartphones or digital literacy? It also, you know, there is a protection risk if sensitive identity or biometric data is overcollected and not well governed and shared in safe ways. You know, we can see this in some not very far away countries Right now there is some crackdown on people and what happens if somebody asks you to open up your smartphone and access all of your data.

[00:48:11.04] - Speaker 3

So of course there's all guardrails and I know many partners are looking into around it, but that has to be very essential part of the conversation around it. So a lot of upside and a few things too that are important to really incorporate into it and not to overthink or not to really skip the thinking around it. That it's not just about the digitalisation of it, but it's also about ensuring that it's accepted by those visa offices.

[00:48:40.21] - Speaker 1

And of course, when we're talking about credentials as well, making sure that employers actually understand it and use it too, so they, they recognise the value of those as well. I know that Belén just mentioned the EU Visa strategy that's just come out, and I was wondering if perhaps Belén and Marius wanted to just talk a little bit about sort of what actions could potentially be taken at the EU level to address some of these challenges. I know that we've seen the EU Visa Strategy come out recently. There are also plans to improve the recognition of foreign qualifications. We saw the Talent Pool being introduced last year. So I was curious to sort of hear from both of your perspectives on where there are opportunities to potentially take action about access at the EU level versus what needs to still happen at the national level, given that that is, you know, where decisions about who to admit ultimately made.

[00:49:30.24] - Speaker 4

Belén, you want to go first?

[00:49:32.17] - Speaker 2

Sure. I think there's potential opportunity in improving all that has to do with EU guidance and also financing to pilot different visa systems, and for especially for having like more transparent appointment system, which we see as one barrier again, as it was mentioned, like for employer engagement, but also in terms of predictability for applicants themselves. So in many cases, there is a big market of reselling appointments. So I think there's an option, for example, to test different systems that prevent this from happening, for example, by having like name appointments or by having radial release of appointments instead of like releasing everything and then having just a few people kind of like getting them all and reselling them at very high prices that essentially make access like very difficult for refugees. So guidance in how how these visa systems, like appointment systems, could work, I think would be extremely rich in benefiting that process. Then I think something else that we see is that there are cases in which there's no EU consular capacity or representation in some departure countries. So, and that has led, for refugees, I mean, it's really complicated already sometimes. To move within the departure country, so they don't want to travel to another country to apply.

[00:50:54.12] - Speaker 2

So I think there's a possibility to perhaps explore the possibility of joining, like, consular capacity and allow refugees to also apply in some of these, like, other embassies. Or as it was mentioned before, like, perhaps, like, rethinking of another system in which they don't even have to go to the embassy in the first place if that's not present. I think also in terms of disseminating good practices for reducing burden of documentation, which again, like we see, there are many documents that are oftentimes required. And from different pilots with refugee labour pathways, we see that sometimes you can reduce this burden without compromising security, because that's of course a valid concern that you want to do background checks and so on and check documentation and all that. But there is a possibility to at least like reduce some of that burden. Yes, and I think I'll leave it there overall.

[00:51:50.22] - Speaker 4

I'm adding a few sentences. Yeah, there's a new visa strategy, yes. I think when it comes to labour market access, we need to be aware that most of the governments still still sits with the member states, um, and I don't really see that this will change anytime very soon. Um, when the EU does a visa strategy, I think it still has a lot of room for a lot of to-dos and improvement. Short-term travel, you mentioned some security measures which should be aligned more closely. The entire IT infrastructure which sits behind, yes, of course it should be better and more powerful. At the same time respect data privacy. And there, there's tons of to-do. And insofar, I'm, I'm positive for the visa strategy to have its effects. When it comes to the labour market access, I mean, we can wish for this to be organised in a different manner, but the reality at the moment is— and that's why also, yeah, good luck to the EU talent pool. Yes, great, but Why? I don't— maybe it's me, I lack the imagination that a small employer with 75 employees who looks for 2 positions somewhere in the countryside in France or Germany will go into a EU-wide system.

[00:53:22.24] - Speaker 4

Um, I think the question at the moment is, do they go into any system and what do they really use to get immigration started for them? Um, and insofar, um, there's the problem is just there's so many overlaying efforts and agendas. And I'm not sure the member states will be very open for the EU to do more than what it already is supposed to do when it comes to opening labour markets. And somewhat the same with refugees, of course. It's organised strongly around European rules, but again, what happens in the member states is massively different from state to state. Which also shows they are still kind of running the show. Yeah, so visa strategy, of course, welcome, but I think at the end of the day, we still almost always need to look at what happens exactly on the local member state level.

[00:54:23.06] - Speaker 1

Thank you both. That's a very helpful answer. We've had a couple of questions about ways to address transparency transparency. So I know this has been a sort of common refrain when we've been discussing these programs about the sort of lack of transparency for employers and for refugee applicants, and of course other international candidates as well. And I was curious if you've sort of seen practical fixes to improve that. So Belén talked about, for example, having a bit more transparency through the EU's sort of measures here, but I was curious if in Germany or in Canada there have been examples where you've been able to kind of improve visibility over sort of the application process, what the different steps are, when you might get sort of a clearer timeline?

[00:55:05.07] - Speaker 4

I think maybe very briefly on Germany, at the moment, transparency and the lack of transparency is one large thing. It is, it's very hard to keep track as an employer, as an employee of where the application stands. Besides the fact that you have to file several applications to get one thing, the visa, administered at the end. So huge room for improvement there, and hopefully this is going to come. There's plans to generate or to implement a new visa agency, work and stay agency, which, which may be coming in the next couple of years, hopefully with much, much more easy online accessibility and then ability to track status. At the moment, it's not really a thing.

[00:55:53.19] - Speaker 3

Yeah, and in Canada, I mean, for us, you know, some of the major barriers I would say when it comes to transparency is, of course, the biggest one is the processing timeline, where, you know, we know that IRCC is working on, you know, online status tool tracker for certain categories, but to date, this has been the biggest struggle for us, and it really I think, you know, continues to be the biggest concern. I don't think that we just right now just say that, you know, the processing timeline could be a year, it could be more, it could be less. It's incredibly challenging for us. The other issue sometimes comes up and something that was captured very well in the MPI report with employers is around, for example, the costs that are associated with hiring through these labour mobility pathways. And that is really especially true when it comes to a lot of the variable costs. And so right now, we're, you know, we built before about variable costs that includes things like temporary accommodation and the cost of flights and so on. So, but that is a bit more on the employer side and we tried to show all the different ranges for it.

[00:57:08.00] - Speaker 3

But from the visa policy side, I think it really, the biggest thing would be the ability to transparently at least ensure that everybody knows the cost is very clear and the processing timeline and the status updates are very clear and transparent. But yes, also nothing that I can speak to that would be any good learnings that we had that were implemented in practice.

[00:57:33.05] - Speaker 1

This is very helpful. Thank you both. Belén, we had a couple of questions about which visas scored highly in our scorecard. I know that we haven't unfortunately had time to run every visa through the system at this point, but I was wondering if you could just speak about, you know, if you've seen particular pathways that are more accessible, or sort of what the strengths of some of these pathways are, just to give a flavour of where you've seen sort of strong visas emerge, where you've seen sort of opportunities to potentially look to examples and, and learn from them.

[00:58:08.03] - Speaker 2

Yes, very good questions. Um, I think as you mentioned, like, we piloted this and we did some user testing with different visas. I wouldn't dare just because we haven't tested them all. So I might not like put forward like one specific visa again, because it's not extensive. But I think there are some features that we identify, for example, linked to accessibility of travel documentations and different, like, yeah, like not only accepting like a valid passport, but actually, for example, providing the possibility to provide a laissez-passer or consider like alternative documentation being approved. Then in terms of, like, for example, salary threshold, we see a few visas as the one that you mentioned in the UK, where before it used to have a lower salary threshold that overall, like, made it more accessible to refugees. Recently, when they increased the salary threshold, like, pretty much that route kind of, like, closed to the vast majority of refugees because it's, like, very hard to reach that salary threshold. Salary threshold. I think also in terms of the timelines for processing, there are many visas in which there's a lot of unclarity or like very lengthy timelines for getting an appointment and processing and then all of these, whereas those visas are, for example, have like this priority processing for at least like the availability to pay if employers are willing to do that for your workers to have this process within a more, like, at least like a shorter period of time.

[00:59:43.16] - Speaker 2

From what we hear, like 1, 2 months, like it's still relatively acceptable for employers, even though normally they want workers for yesterday. But more than that, it makes it like very challenging to sustain engagement, for example. Yeah, I think like those are some of the features. And then in terms of, of course, like all the rights linked to the visa and associated work permit. That can also make a huge difference in how a specific visa score and whether a refugee might realistically consider moving under visa pathways versus waiting for resettlement or other more protection-based pathways.

[01:00:26.08] - Speaker 1

Thank you, Belén. So I know we are over the hour. Thank you so much to our speakers and to our audience for joining us for this call. We tried to get to as many questions as we could, but I apologise that we weren't able to get to all of them. Thank you so much for the really thoughtful contributions in the Q&A. We will have an audio and video recording of this webinar available on our website. And as you can see from the slide here in the chat, the report and the associated scorecard are now available on our website. And any reporters on the call can contact my colleague Michelle Mittelstadt. Her email is available on this slide, um, with any questions. Thank you so much to everyone for joining us today, and thank you again for the interest in our research.